Rapture/Milennium position

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Eric B, Mar 28, 2002.

  1. Eric B

    Eric B
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    Which view do you hold?
     
  2. Sovereign Grace

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    I do not have a particular view, but Scripture strongly supports a Premillennial view of Christ's second coming.

    (Jer. 23:5) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. (6) In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    The news today is telling a totally different story than Jeremiah 23:5, 6.

    (Jer. 14:4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mount in shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

    That will be the day Christ establishes His kingdom.

    (v. 9) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

    (Dan. 2:44) And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

    The kingdom of God/kingdom of heaven is a spiritual kingdom (Luke 17:21). I live in the real world, and it is obvious the spiritual kingdom has not overthrown the the earthly kingdoms.

    The second coming of Christ is clearly premillennial.

    [ March 29, 2002, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Sovereign Grace ]
     
  3. ddavis

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    This poll reminds me of what the chicken said when she look in the pan and seen the scambled eggs,
    "Now that's a bunch of mixed up kids."
     
  4. Ray Berrian

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    ddavis,

    We needed that 'smile' that you put on our faces. Here's to New Mexico.

    Dr. Berrian
     
  5. ken1burton

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    The Rapture:

    We need a Trumpet first:
    (ISAIAH 58:1) Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins. (KJV)

    Jesus cries out at death. And the Trumpet sounds:

    (JEREMIAH 4:19) My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. (KJV)
    (Jesus as He cries out at Death. The trumpet sounds)

    (JEREMIAH 4:20) Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment. (KJV)
    (Jesus takes sin, the curses fall upon Him also. As He dies on the cross, all things cursed are destroyed, He is even the EARTH cursed because of sin.) The Curtains spoiled is the Veil in the temple ripped. Paul's MOMENT is in this verse. "In a moment, in the Twinkling of an eye, The Trumpet shall sound, the Lord shall descend (into hell) and we shall be changed. As children in 2 more verses.

    (JEREMIAH 4:21) How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet? (KJV)
    (Jesus as He is crying out on the cross (standard) at death.)

    (JEREMIAH 4:22) For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. (KJV)
    (Converted as Children by God's word.)

    (JEREMIAH 4:23) I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. (KJV)
    (Looking at the Dead body of Christ. This is the BEGINNING seen in John 1:1) The heavens have no light because the Light of the World just descended into hell.

    Falling away first is all forsaking Jesus. man of sin revealed is Jesus with the sin of the world from Isaiah 53:6. Sitting upon the Throne of God showing Himself to be God is Zechariah 12:8, and the House of David shall be AS GOD, Because He is also dead part of the day, He is also seen in 12:8 as the Angel of the Lord.

    Exaulting Himself above all that is CALLED, CALLED, CALLED God, not what is God but what they were calling God, and what they were worshipping in error.

    The 1,000 year reign is the day of the cross, the rest of the dead lived not again till the 1,000 years was over, that is on the Second day when He revives them.

    (HOSEA 6:2) After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. (KJV)

    (ISAIAH 26:19) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (KJV)

    Together with His dead body they arose. Those that died in SHARON rose with Jesus, He is the Rose of Sharon. [​IMG] God likes word games.

    (ZECHARIAH 9:11) As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. (KJV)

    Jesus in hell is set free with all the others, Taking the sin of the World also applied to past sin, which with His stipes ended present sin also, He took Future sin to Calvary=It is finished. (Declaring the end from the BEGINNING=Isaiah 46:10)

    Ken
     
  6. tyndale1946

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    I don't know where you get your theology but Jesus according to my KJV never went to hell and your interpretation and application of scripture is wrong. The RCC teaches that and they also teach purgatory and you stated you are Baptist? I would like to know how many Baptist on this board believe Jesus spent one second in hell? I sure don't and neither do my Primitive Baptist brethren. Unless the hell you are speaking of is the grave... Brother Glen :(

    [ March 30, 2002, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    I Peter 4:19 indicates that Christ while He was entombed in the grave went and ' . . . preached to the spirits in prison {phulake} meaning to guard, cage, hold or prison. His preaching was to all the lost of the Noahic age.

    Acts 2:27 is a second reference to Christ entering {hades} meaning unseen state of departed souls.

    Lewis Sperry Chafer says in his seventh volume of Systematic Theology:

    'If now the eleven occurrences of Hades in the New Testament be carefully examined, the following conclusions will be reached. (a) Hades is invariably connected with death; but never with life: always with the dead people; but never with the living. All in Hades will not live again,' until they are raised from the dead (Rev. 20:5). If they do not 'live again' until after they are raised, it is perfectly clear that they cann be alive now. Otherwise we do away with the doctrine of the resurrection altogether. (b) That the English word 'hell' by no means represents the Greek Hades; as we have seen that it does not give a correct idea of its Hebrew equivalent, Sheol. (C) That Hades can mean only and exactly what Sheol means, viz., the place where 'corruption' is seen (Acts 2:31; compare 13:34-37); and from which, resurrection is the only exit" Ibid., p. 369).

    Christ did go into Hades but His soul never bowed to the corruption there. [Acts 2:27] This is obviously true because of Easter morning and His triumphant resurrection which insures our hope of resurrection to eternal life with Him.

    Some good commentaries will assist you in a fuller explanation of this truth.

    Respectfully,

    Dr. Berrian
     
  8. DocCas

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    I suspect using 1 Peter 3:19 to try to support a "Christ went to hell (hades, whatever) and preached to the souls there" view is, at best, poor exegesis. The context tells us that Christ rose from the dead (quickened) by the power of the Holy Spirit, and also, by that same power, went, in the time frame of when they were still alive, and preached to the souls who are now in prison (hell). The context goes on to make it clear that the time when Jesus preached to them was "in the days of Noah" (verse 20).

    Jesus preached to the souls now in hell while they were still alive, in the days of Noah, in the power of the Holy Spirit through Noah.
     
  9. tyndale1946

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    Ken you also need to go to the Baptist welcome forum and introduce yourself to the moderators so everyone can get to know you. Since this a baptist only forum you need to give what baptist church you belong to as this section is only for those who are Baptist. Baptised a baptist is fine but you stated you are christian. We have another who was baptised a baptist and is now a Catholic and he can't post here. Baptist only forums are for those who are Baptist and claim that title with a church affiliation. Those are our rules!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  10. Circuitrider

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    I'm in this with you, Tom. It takes a fertile imagination to come up with the idea that Jesus spent even a moment in hades.

    One Scripture does not a doctrine make --- Shakespeare (at least he may have said it) :D :D
     
  11. Ray Berrian

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    I too agree that no cardinal doctrine is being established in I Peter 3:10. Apparently, there was a necessity to have this truth placed in the Word for us.

    There is no Bible warrant for us to believe the Christ of God personally preached to the people in Noah's time. We know that the Spirit of God was active in calling the lost to repentance. [Genesis 6:3] God had His agents in the Noah's times as well as in Enoch's time before him.

    The order seems more than clear to me. Christ suffered for sins; the Just One for the unjust; He was put to death in the body; and quickened by the Spirit at His resurrection form the dead on Easter. While in the tomb His spiritual Body and Being went to the abode of lost spirits. These were those who had ignored the testimony of Noah as to the necessity of their repentance. ‘He preached to the spirits in prison.' The Greek word for ‘prison' is {phulake} indicating that He preached to the lost spirits in (a place that is guarded or a ward.) [I Peter 3:19]

    II Peter 2:4-9 indicates that the lost including fallen angels, sinners of Noah's era, and Sodom and Gomorrah all are ‘reserved unto the day of judgment to be punished.' This reserved place is ‘the prison' spoken of in the first epistle of Peter.

    This truth is not documented in just one verse but, at this point, I have shown you two references that tie in with the truth before us.

    Acts 2:27 indicates that God would not allow the second Person of the Trinity to remain in {hadan} as Strong says, means the ‘place of departed souls.' The second part of the verse suggests that God would not allow Christ to decompose in the tomb. Hades is the abode of lost souls and not Gehenna that speaks of the flames of a burning Hell.

    Having been accused of building a doctrine on one verse let me give you the final verse making four verses that speak to the same issue. In Psalm16:10 is the Old Testament prophecy speaking of the Messiah, the Holy One who God would not allow to remain in the abode of the lost, nor would He allow Jesus' body to decompose. This cannot refer to King David because I Kings 2:2 indicates that his body would decompose and would co-mingle with the dust of the earth.

    If you have A.T. Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament, who was professor of New Testament interpretation at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary has some things to say in Volume VI p. 117. Robertson says, ‘Luther admits that he does not know what Peter means. Brigg has no doubt that the event recorded took place between Christ's death and His resurrection and holds that Peter is alluding to Christ's Descensus ad Inferos in Acts 2:27. Another theologian, Windisch agrees with this interpretation.

    Robertson says that ‘Augustine held that Christ was in Noah when he preached.

    Matthew Henry's Commentary on II Peter 2:5 says this and I agree with him. ‘Those in Enoch's and Noah's time had the truth preached to them. At the time of the writing of I & II Peter {sinners during Noah's era} were dead and disembodied when the apostle speaks of them, therefore, he properly calls them spirits now in prison.' Clearly, they were not in prison when Enoch and Noah preached to them.

    In Matthew Henry's Commentary p. 1026 he makes this statement. ‘Not that thy were in prison when Christ preached to them, as the vulgar Latin translation and the popish expositors pretend.'
    Here Matthew Henry departs from Augustinian-Catholic belief. Matthew Henry is a five point Calvinist and an Amillennialist and well within the theology of John Calvin and his mentor, the Catholic theologian, Augustine. That's like ‘the kettle calling the pot black.'


    Another man ‘Wohlenberg holds that Peter means that Christ in His preexistent state preached to those who rejected the preaching of Noah who are now in prison.'

    Everyone has to come to their own conclusion as to what God is saying in these verses. Brigg, Windisch, Matthew Henry and I agree that Christ in His spiritual body went and preached to the lost spirits in prison, sometime between Friday at 3:00 o'clock and His triumphant resurrection on Easter morning.

    I perhaps do not have a 'fertile imagination,' Circuitrider, but a mind that has been trained in a study of the Word. Apparently, Brigg, Windisch, Matthew Henry and others hold to the same ideas that I understand to be the truth.

    Respectfully,

    Dr. Berrian
     
  12. ken1burton

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    Tyndale.

    I want to go for Isaiah 53:9. The rich and wicked would be in HELL. I started at Isaiah 53:6 to show this is about Jesus.

    (ISAIAH 53:6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.(KJV)
    (ISAIAH 53:7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. (KJV)
    (ISAIAH 53:8) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. (KJV)
    (ISAIAH 53:9) And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. (KJV)

    Now. Brother Glen.

    I did not go to the introduction board. I seldom if ever say anything about myself. If the introduction board is really a screening room. I do not attend any Baptist church now. Nor any other denomination. Does that make me a non-believer? Does that change if Jesus went into hell or not?

    I said I was baptised a Baptist. The Baptist church I was baptised in then wrote me down as a member of the Baptist church. Have I been excommunicated?

    Lucifer is the most beautiful angel that wanted to be God, Sound Baptist doctrine? Sound like Roman Catholic Doctrine accepted by the Baptist church, Was it ever search out Scripturally?

    Perfect in Beauty, in the day when Thou was created till Iniquity was found in Thee. Does Isaish 53:6 ring a bell about Iniquity? Who did God put iniquity on? Jesus or Lucifer?

    Ken. Maybe a Baptist, I call my self a Christian, I follow Jesus. or are Christians not allowed here?
     
  13. Eric B

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    Everybody got sidetracked on "Christ in Hell", but you all missed:

    Interesting idea, but then you remember "son of perdition, and later "and then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume...with the brightness of His coming(v8).
    Sorry, but you really need to rethink that interpretation.
     
  14. ken1burton

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    Eric.

    I did not cover the Son of Perdition. But let's go there for a Second. Jesus was given 12 Disciples. He was also given HIMSELF. He had the power to lay down His life, He had the power to take it up again, This commandment was He given of the Father.

    God lays upon Jesus the iniquity of us all in Isaiah 53:6. The law in Deuteronomy 24:16 says that every man shall be put to death for His OWN SIN. The Sins belonged to Jesus at Calvary, They were HIS as if He had committed every one of them.

    Job 33:22 starts a series of prophecies: Jesus on the cross, the one called the Good thief (Jesus has all sin) Then Judas repenting. This prophecy shows Judas does not go into hell. Jesus has sin, He is the one who has to go into hell to fulfill prophecy. He is the Son of Perdition. He took sin, He is the one lost, It was Save Himself or the World.

    (JOB 33:22) Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers. (KJV)
    (JOB 33:23) If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: (KJV)
    (JOB 33:24) Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom. (KJV)
    (JOB 33:25) His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth: (KJV)
    (JOB 33:26) He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness. (KJV)
    (JOB 33:27) He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not; (KJV)
    (JOB 33:28) He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light. (KJV)

    The Ransom was if Jesus found one man to stand up for Him, God would pardon sin. Jesus would not have had to die. The offer for the pardon is Jeremiah 5:1. The One called the Good Theif later reviled Jesus also. No pardon, Jesus had to die for sin. Part of the prophecy was He was to be disappointed. He was.

    (JEREMIAH 5:1) Run ye to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, and see now, and know, and seek in the broad places thereof, if ye can find a man, if there be any that executeth judgment, that seeketh the truth; and I will pardon it.(KJV)

    (MATTHEW 27:44) The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. (KJV)
    (PSALMS 142:4) I looked on my right hand, and beheld, but there was no man that would know me: refuge failed me; no man cared for my soul. (KJV)

    Jesus has the UNPARDONABLE sin, He had to die for sin, no Pardon.

    Jesus Took sin willingly. He made the Tree Evil. Dying with sin got Him the keys to Death and hell which all people (Prior to Christ taking away the sin of the world.) got.

    Going into hell, He could not take up His life again, He had to WAIT on the Lord. The Third day Jesus and all in hell were set free:

    (ZECHARIAH 9:11) As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. (KJV)

    The 14 chapter of Isaiah is looking into hell. Verse 31 shows the Similitude for hell ceasing to exist on the Third day. Jesus TOOK AWAY the sin of the World. Making a end of sin and bringing in everlasting righteousness as Daniel 9:24 shows.

    The Disciples and Paul never got past the seal in Daniel 9:24 to see sin ended as far as accountable to mankind.

    Ken
     
  15. Clint Kritzer

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    Ken -

    I am unsure as to your denominational affiliation as listed in your profile. Are you Baptist or not? Are you affiliated with a Baptist church?

    If not please read our POSTING RULES.

    I will send this post to you by e-mail as well so that you can clarify for us. [​IMG]

    Clint Kritzer
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  16. ken1burton

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    Clint.

    First: A Baptist is not like other denominations. There is no set Doctrine beyond Baptism by emmersion. Belief in God and in Jesus Christ. Beyond that it is from one church to another.

    Anyone can start a Baptist church, Gather a congregation, and even have the congregation appoint themselves a Pastor. There are thousands of Independent Baptist Churches. They answer to no person on earth. The Doctrine range covers a great deal.

    I was Baptised in a Baptist Church. I believe in Baptism by Emmersion. I believe in Jesus Christ and know Him. I believe in God and Know Him. I do not attend any denominational services. As far as I know I am still a member where I was baptised.

    You might not like this next part, But it is the best way I can explain why I do not attend services. I am Hungry for God's Word. I find services like going to a empty cupboard.

    The Churches should be ashamed of what they call Bible studies. and also all the reasons they come up with for cancelling them. I have no desire to be told what I already know. I desire to learn more about God. To see Him clearer and clearer.

    I have found that God speaks through His words. And when those words are shared with others, God adds more. The more you are willing to share, the more God gives you to share.

    Jesus said "Follow ME.", Not a Pastor, not a Doctrine. But where He will lead.

    The main argument is "Forsaking the Assembling of yourselves together." The Word is ASSEMBLING, not ASSEMBLY. When Baptists withdrawl, and say "Baptist only" that is Forsaking the Assembling. or the putting together of the Body of Christ. Because the Methodist are not the Eye, are they not of the Body? Because Pentecostals are not the ear, Are they not of the Body?

    (1CORINTHIANS 12:14) For the body is not one member, but many. (KJV)
    (1CORINTHIANS 12:15) If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? (KJV)
    (1CORINTHIANS 12:16) And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? (KJV)
    (1CORINTHIANS 12:17) If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? (KJV)
    (1CORINTHIANS 12:18) But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. (KJV)

    No one in the Body of Christ (Body of Believers) should say they are not of the Body or are separate. No one of the Body should say another believer is not as they are.

    Here is how God works, and here is the reason to stay together, and to share with each other. God made the different denominations so we keep tract of each other, So we point out to one another when we are going scriptural astray.

    Waco is a good example. Withdrawl into a Baptist only forum, or just into a one man's forum. We need to keep the communications with other believer open. And that is all areas. Let non-believers in. God needs believeing groups He can send those that are hurting.

    They come in mad and angry. No problem. It comes with the territory. If God is gracious enough to send us someone who needs to know Him, Should we keep the door shut on them?

    Follow Jesus.

    Ken
     
  17. Brutus

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    God made the different denominations? Where did you come up with this ridiculous idea?
     
  18. csmith

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    Of course Jesus didn't go to Hades. Hell is not the payment for sin--the cross is ("It is finished"). Hell is the place where people who do not have their sins paid for go. "This day thou shalt be with me in paradise." There would be absolutely no reason for Jesus to go to Hell and preach. What is the purpose of preaching? To turn sinners to Christ! What opportunity would there be for Christ to turn people to himself in an eternal hell? Ridiculous. I'm relatively new in this particular board, but I am starting to see that Tom Cassidy knows his Bible.
     
  19. csmith

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    Ken,
    Your theology is so messed up, who would know where to start correcting it? Sorry, but I think you ought to show us where God is for multiple denominations. Also, the way you use the word church is faulty. You are using it on a universal scale. The different parts of the "body" in God's Word is referring to the individual elements withing a local church. I think your excuse for not going to church is lame. I visit with folks all of the time with similar arguments and it usually boils down to the fact that they are too lazy to get up and go.
    Curtis
     
  20. tyndale1946

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    Started a new topic addressing the issue of if Jesus went to hell in a topic called The Bosom Of Abraham... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ April 01, 2002, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     

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