Rapture or Apostacy?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jordan Kurecki, Nov 18, 2013.

  1. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki
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    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    recently I was challenged on facebook by someone that the falling away refers to the rapture, the claim is that the Greek word can mean departure and does not mean Religious Apostasy in this case, to be quite honest I'm not sure which direction to go with this one, I can see how both cases can be valid.

    I had a thought that possibly God is his sovereignty intends for the word to maybe mean both the rapture and the religious apostasy? of course I'm not solid on that it was just a thought.
     
  2. OldRegular

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    I don't believe it means "rapture" in the dispensational sense since that will not happen!
     
  3. Jordan Kurecki

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    Pardon me?
     
  4. Luke2427

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    I think his point is that the popular idea of a "rapture" is not biblical so it is a myth- it will not ever take place.

    before 1830 nobody of any note ever believed in a rapture, then a tribulation period then a second coming . Even after that very few people believed it for a very long time. It was not until the Scofield study bible came out that a significant number of Christians began to believe it.

    And still, without TBN and the charismatics and Pentecostals, I can't imagine how it would have ever become a dominant viewpoint concerning eschatology.

    I think it is a fad. As Pentecostals and Charismatics fade out in the next fifty years or so, I think rapture theology will go with them.
     
  5. Jordan Kurecki

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    Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    whats this talking about then?
     
  6. Jordan Kurecki

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    Victorinus ( Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.)

    Victorinus wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation. In one place he made an interesting statement that reflects his idea that the church would be removed prior to the tribulation. Of course his ideas were not systematic, and some will argue that he contradicts himself in other places, which may very well be true. But even with such an admission it still serves us well to see that early in the church history someone taught in some sense that God's church could escape the tribulation period by being removed from the earth. His commentary notes in Revelation 6:14 indicate a pre-trib reference of some sort:

    "And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up." For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And every mountain and the islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid persecution.

    This reference gives light into a developing idea in the earliest periods of the church. There was an idea that God's people could be spared the terrible time of wrath thatGod would pour out on the earth by removing the saints. The saint's departure from the earth would occur so they would not undergo the terible wrath at the beginning of the judgments of God upon the sinful unbelieving world.
     
  7. Jordan Kurecki

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    Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373)

    Ephraem wrote an important sermon "On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World." As a prominent theologian and prolific writer of the Eastern Byzantine church, he advocated for a pretribulational rapture position for the church. Dr. Grant Jeffrey has noted that he had a profound love for the Scriptures. Below is a selected quote that concerns the escape of God's people from the horrible tribulation. He stated:

    "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of hte Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we ovvupied with wordly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it it the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see it with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: "Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!" Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. And so brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and invasions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor ofthe appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!
     
  8. Luke2427

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    I'm familiar with these men, but your dignity drove you to confess the problem with using them.

    Their teachings were vague and cannot be nailed down (for certain) to be anywhere near close to the eschatology that Darby invented and publicized in 1830.

    Even if they COULD be shown to be teaching something remotely close to the idea of a rapture and then the seven years of tribulation and then the Second Coming, it has to be confessed by any honest person that the examples of such teaching is EXTREMELY few and far between.

    It was never widely accepted before Scofield and it has become popular on the backs of Charismatics and TBN.

    That does not mean it is wrong. It just means that it may not be right and it is perfectly okay to call it faddish and not embrace it- and to consider eschatological positions that have had a great deal more longevity. (Historic Premil, Amil, Postmil)
     
  9. prophet

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    Read the first 9 verses of ch. 5, and the first 8 or so in the OP ch. (2 Thes. 2) and it will tell you.
     
  10. prophet

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    Don't forget Amy Semple McPherson
     
  11. beameup

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    The Greek word apostasia was directly incorporated into the English language prior to the writing of the King James.
    In the English versions prior to King James it is rendered departure. It seems that "apostasy" underwent a change in meaning over time.
    By the time the King James was put together, the transliterated word "apostasia" had come to mean apostasy as we know it today and was translated "falling away" unfortunately.
    IMO, this was a mistake, but not uncommon in language. The word "apostasia" should correctly be translated "departure".
    The "departure" is the harpazo, the "catching away into the clouds" of believers.
    Then the false gospel with the false Messiah will be revealed and deceive the whole world.
     
  12. prophet

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    Too Bad Jesus left this out in Matthew 24, huh? Musta been inna hurry. Poor disciples, they thought they were gonna go through the great tribulation he told them about.
    Or maybe 'falling away' actually means 'falling away'. And we are waiting for the sign of the sun, moon, stars disrupted, the sky removed, and the Lamb appearing, like Jesus told us.
     
  13. Revmitchell

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    So he gave a reasoned response to the op discussing scripture and original context and language. You gave sarcasm
     
  14. agedman

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    I think it would be unfortunate for someone to grab the Greek word's use of "departure" as pertaining to the church's saved as departing.

    The use of "departure" is the departure from sound theology, and truth of the Scriptures.

    For example, if one takes that the typical charismatic church teaching is not sound doctrine then in the sentence, "There has been a departure of many baptists into the charismatic church," shows how a large group have left and joined to that of unsound theology. The sentence could read, "There has been an apostasy of baptists into the charismatic church."

    In Paul's day, the early church would often be invaded by "judaizers" or folks who taught a "different gospel." Too often, these would lead folks out of what they had been taught as sound theology.

    Paul is warning that in the last days there will be a great number of folks who go after a "different gospel," and who depart from the truth of the Scriptures.

    In short this verse is about those who depart into error, not into glory.

    It should also be pointed out that every generation has seen some great "departure" into error, and it seems to them a fulfillment of Paul's statement. But do not be deceived.

    Paul is stating - stay the course. The departure(s) will happen. There will be many who are deluded, and chase after "friendly teaching" (my term). But Christ WILL return. He will come back. Don't look at the "signs" (the departure) in despair but in hope of Christ's soon return.
     
  15. prophet

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    Claiming superior scholarship to the AV translators is not a 'reasoned response'. As intellectual as it sounded, his post was not scriptural.
    I gave a scriptural response, citing Matt 24, and referencing vs. 29-31, I just did it in my own words.
     
  16. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Welcome to the Baptist Board, Jordan. You've stepped in your first pile with this subject, as there are many who inexplicably reject clear biblical teaching regarding Christ coming for His church, preferring the false teaching of men in spite of excellent exegesis of a myriad members who know, understand, and believe the truth and present it every time a "rapture" thread shows up. Personally, I've grown tired of it, because it's always the same ones who won't believe, won't listen, and won't change their minds. I still love 'em and fellowship with 'em anyway. Sorry you had to find this out so early.

    But God bless, and Godspeed, in your journey through this fellowship.

    :wavey:
     
  17. Luke2427

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    Yea, so everybody in the Christian world was an idiot before C. I. Scofield and TBN.

    LOL!

    That's funny.

    What champions of exegesis these people have been!!

    HAHAHAHAHA!
     
  18. webdog

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    The Greek literaly means a removal of christianity. That can be taken as either the rapture or christianity dying out....or both.
     
  19. Jordan Kurecki

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    Did you see my earlier posts on the first page of early church fathers who referenced the rapture?
     
  20. Luke2427

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    Yes, sir. I responded to it.

    The post of mine to which you are responding above was directed at the person who intimated that anybody who has a different eschatology is basically apostate, backslid or stupid.

    I was just pointing out that his claim was not warranted.
     

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