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rapture questions

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Chowmah, Nov 19, 2010.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In Acts 1 The disciples ask the very odd question that GE proposes - they ask if it is true that at his resurrection that NOW the John 14 promise of the 2nd coming is to be fulfilled.

    Jesus said "no".

    Jesus tells them that it will come at a future point in time and that they would not know the exact time during the years they were to live out in the first century A.D.

    And indeed they did not.

    In 2Thess 2 Paul says not to be deceived by anyone claiming that the great promise of Christ (and focus of the church) in John 14 -- the 2nd coming has happened already.


    Quote:
    2Thess 2
    1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
    2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
    3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
    4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

    ================================

    The John 14 promise given by Jesus saying "I will come AGAIN and receive you unto myself" was in direct connection to "I GO to the Father" and "In my Father's house are many mansions" and "I GO to prepare a place for you", and "Where I am going you CANNOT come" now and "I will come again and receive you unto Myself SO THAT WHERE I am THERE you may be also".

    Jesus was going to heaven at his ascension -- to take up His role as our High Priest (see Heb 4, 7,8,9)

    The disciples knew that he said he was going and would come again - so they ask about this in Acts 1. Jesus said that they would were not to know the exact day for that future -- promised event.

    Peter talks about the saints "fixing their hope COMPLETELY on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ".

    That John 14 promise is the focus for the NT who look to being with Christ. "And SO shall we EVER be WITH the Lord" as Paul says in 1Thess 4.

    in Christ,
    Bob
     
    #61 BobRyan, Dec 17, 2010
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    GE:

    A beautiful display of fireworks! Give credit where credit is due!

    Re: BR, “In Acts 1 The disciples ask the very odd question that GE proposes - they ask if it is true that at his resurrection that NOW the John 14 promise of the 2nd coming is to be fulfilled.
    Jesus said "no".”

    “The disciples ask”, says BR, but, “GE proposes”. That’s ‘ODD’.

    Says BR, “In Acts 1 the disciples … ask” : “if it is true that at his resurrection…”

    The disciples asked NO question of the kind! Lie, or, true?

    “his resurrection” is not mentioned or even alluded at “in Acts 1”. Lie, or, true?

    “the 2nd coming” is not mentioned or even alluded at in the disciple’s question. Lie, or, true?

    “the 2nd coming” is not mentioned or even alluded at in Jesus answer to the disciples. Lie, or, true?

    “the John 14 promise” is not mentioned or even alluded at. Lie, or, true?

    “the John 14 promise” is not the “promise” of the Holy Spirit which Jesus referred to in verses 4-5. Lie, or, true?

    “the 2nd coming” is not the “promise” Jesus anywhere in Acts 1 promised. The two men in white apparel affirmed “the 2nd coming” AFTER Jesus had ascended. Lie, or, true?

    SO WHAT IS “the John 14 promise”?

    Is “the John 14 promise”, “the promise of the 2nd coming”? True, or, false?

    Bob Ryan claims: “Jesus tells them” “… the John 14 promise …”, “that it will come at a future point in time and that they would not know the exact time during the years they were to live out in the first century A.D.” False lie, or, true words? Well, if words could speak for themselves…. Jesus, or, Bob Ryan, is a liar.

    Bob Ryan, “In 2Thess 2 Paul says … the great promise of Christ (and focus of the church) in John 14 -- the 2nd coming ….”

    The question if we want to know who is speaking truth and who lies, then is simply: Is Jesus “in John 14” making “the great promise” of “the 2nd coming”? Yes, And Bob Ryan speaks truth; No, And Bob Ryan speaks lies.

    Conclusion:

    First:
    Judged by the total irrelevancy of pointing in the wrong direction and quoting “2Thess 2” in answer to this determinative question concerning Jesus’ promise made in John 14, Bob Ryan has at least three fingers pointing back at him indicating who cannot be trusted in the matter.

    Let John 14 speak for itself!

    Bob Ryan now gets his turn at letting John 14 speak for itself…

    Bob Ryan:
    “The John 14 promise given by Jesus saying " I will come AGAIN and receive you unto myself" was in direct connection to "I GO to the Father" and "In my Father's house are many mansions" and "I GO to prepare a place for you", and "Where I am going you CANNOT come" now and "I will come again and receive you unto Myself SO THAT WHERE I am THERE you may be also".”

    GE’s turn:
    So far, so good. Did I, GE, say anything different? I did not. Did Jesus say anything about “the 2nd coming” though? He did NOT. Lie, or, true? He did, Bob Ryan will insist; “I will come AGAIN” Bob Ryan will say, is Jesus, speaking about “the 2nd coming”. “During … years” after, is also what Bob Ryan will have said. And guess what GE is going to say? Where in John 14?! Guessed right!

    I’m glad Bob Ryan used the translation he used. It does not read, “I shall come again and receive you unto myself”. It reads emphatically and commanding: “I _WILL_ come again and receive you unto myself!” A ‘promise’ is it, yes! But a promise of IMMEDIATE PERTINENCE. It’s no promise about “a future point in time … during the years they were to live out…” whenever— “in” or after “the first century A.D.”. It is Jesus’ IMMINENT promise, “the promise of Christ in John 14” which He “fulfilled” VERY SOON and “according to the Scriptures on the third day” immediately after.

    It was not so long ago that Jesus asked his disciples, “Can you be baptized with the baptism I am baptized?” Here in John 14 He gives them the answer: “You cannot.” Because you cannot “go”, “where I go.” Only Jesus then understood; only He then knew what lay ahead. Explain that to the unbelieving, ignorant, ambitious disciples! Jesus TOLD them though that they would soon after, better understand.

    No; there’s not one word from Jesus’ mouth that could bring his loved disciples under false impressions of some very distant ‘special resurrection’ of the saints only after which a million years waited “they were to live out” BEFORE everyone of them would take possession of their prepared mansions …according to Rob Byan still “in heaven”! Heavens!! What nonsense.

    BR:
    “Jesus was going to heaven at his ascension -- to take up His role as our High Priest (see Heb 4, 7,8,9) The disciples knew that he said he was going and would come again - so they ask about this in Acts 1.”

    GE:
    Repeating is depleting further the ruins of your dreams, dear Bob.

    Be honest, dear Bob, they NEVER “ask about this”, Jesus’ “role as our High Priest … Heb 4, 7,8,9”, “in Acts 1”— NEVER!

    And quite frankly, dear Bob Ryan, you know full well you talk through your spine saying, “Jesus said that they were not to know the exact day for that future -- promised event” here in John 14.

    BR:
    “Peter talks about the saints "fixing their hope COMPLETELY on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. That John 14 promise is the focus for the NT who look to being with Christ. "And SO shall we EVER be WITH the Lord" as Paul says in 1Thess 4.”

    GE:
    No, dear Bob, Paul and Peter are not speaking about what John wrote. Stop your dishonest attempts at upholding the errors and heresies of Seventh-day Adventism.

    Be a man for Christ and truth and renounce that rubbish.
     
    #62 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Dec 18, 2010
  3. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    So at what time shall “we ALL be changed”? Whats the time frame according to scripture
     
    #63 Chowmah, Jan 7, 2011
  4. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    JOB 14 [12] So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me![14] If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

    Job knew when “we shall ALL be changed”. According to the scriptures its around the time of the wrath of God. After the heavens be no more. Its in the timeframe of the DAY OF THE LORD that “we shall ALL be changed”. Not pre-trib and not mid-trib.

    ISAIAH 34 [2] For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.[3] Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.[4] And all the host of HEAVEN SHALL BE DISSOLVED, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. [8] For it is THE DAY OF THE LORD'S VENGEANCE, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

    The Day of the Lord. Thats when the heavens shall be dissolved (verse 4). Or as Job would say, after the heavens be no more, then we shall live again. Then we shall all be changed. Also, there is no scripture to be found that says we will be headin for heaven after that "changing"
     
    #64 Chowmah, Jan 12, 2011
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    According to 1Cor 15 it is at the "last Trump" that same chapter says it is at "his coming". Thus it is the trumpet of 1Thess 4 and it is what Rev 20:5 calls "The first resurrection" that occurs at the Rev 19 coming of Christ.

    Where Jesus "comes again to receive us unto Himself" so that "Where he is there we may be also"

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #65 BobRyan, Jan 12, 2011
  6. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Hi Bob
    You will find no where in scripture that at the changing we will be brought to heaven. We meet the Lord in the air and its off to the 1000yr period of rest. Thats where HE will bring us

    JOHN 10 [14] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. [15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] And OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD: THEM ALSO I MUST BRING, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    I MUST BRING. Jesus said there were “others” not of the fold of the house of Israel. These “others” are the gentiles that hear His voice. Them also He will bring.... Bring where?

    ISAIAH 56 [1] Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for MY SALVATION IS NEAR to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. [2] Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. [3] Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. [4] For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; [5] Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. [6] Also THE SONS OF THE STRANGER, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one THAT KEEPETH THE SABBATH from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; [7] EVEN THEM WILL I BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. [8] The Lord God which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, YET WILL I GATHER OTHERS TO HIM, beside those that are gathered unto him.

    THEM WILL I BRING. Jesus brings them to His Holy Mountain. The 1000 yr period of rest. Yes, the “others” are the gentiles.

    ZECH. 8 [1] Again the word of the Lord of hosts came to me, saying, [2] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. [3] Thus saith the Lord; I AM RETURNED UNTO ZION, AND WILL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts THE HOLY MOUNTAIN. [4] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age. [5] And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof. [6] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the Lord of hosts. [7] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I WILL SAVE MY PEOPLE FROM THE EAST COUNTRY, AND FROM THE WEST COUNTRY; [8] AND I WILL BRING THEM, AND THEY SHALL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

    Again, HE will bring His people to Jerusalem. Thus saith the Lord {verse 3}.. Where we are HE is
     
    #66 Chowmah, Jan 17, 2011
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.

    1Thess 4 happens at the Rev 20 event called "The first resurrection" where the blessed and holy - the righteous are raised, "The dead in Christ are raised first" - we who are alive and remain are caught up together with them in the air and are taken to heaven.

    Then is the John 14 promise fulfilled.

    The evangelism of the Gentiles that followed the resurrection of Christ is mentioned in John 10. Paul refers to this in Romans 11.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #67 BobRyan, Jan 17, 2011
  8. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    Speaking of 1Thes.4

    1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    1 THES. 5 [1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a WOMAN WITH CHILD; and they shall not escape.

    Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? There is no scriptural gap between the above scriptures. 1Thes.5 directly follows 1Thes.4 verse 18. There were no chapters and verses when 1Thes was written. It clearly says that the goins on of 1Thes.4 takes place on the Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord takes place after the tribulatuion.

    ISAIAH 26 [17] Like as a WOMAN WITH CHILD, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord. [18] We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

    In Isaiah we find scriptural proof that 1Thes.4 and 1Thes.5 belong together like a horse and carriage. You find “women with child” in both scriptures. You find the dead rising in the 1st resurrection in both scriptures. Lastly you find the bad guys gettin the what for in both scriptures. Yup. The Day of the Lord.
     
    #68 Chowmah, Jan 28, 2011
  9. Chowmah

    Chowmah Member

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    This is very typical way a rapturist will answer a question. But why. I can see people doing this song and dance if they were to be makin a lot of filthy lucre off of it. WC Fields truly was right.

    When we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Its a very simple truth, yet....they cant handle the truth

    But to what end?
     
    #69 Chowmah, Jan 30, 2011
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I agreed that at the 2nd coming described in Rev 19 the saints are taken to heaven - because this is the point of the Rev 20:5 "first resurrection" mentioned in 1Thess 4.

    However that resurrection brings about the change of 1Cor 15. "We shall all be changed.. "At His coming" 1Cor 15:23. At the last trump.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #70 BobRyan, Feb 1, 2011
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