Rapture = Second Coming?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Ed Edwards, Dec 2, 2004.

  1. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Dean198 elsewhere: "on the rapture issue, all i would say
    is this - where is there any indication that the rapture
    is a separate event from the second coming, rather
    than an actual part of the second coming? "

    Yes, a few:
    BTW, Many believe that the two seperate
    events occur the same 24-hour day.
    I believe the two events will happen the
    same 7-year day.

    Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
    with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
    to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
    Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

    1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
    (John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
    1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

    2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
    2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
    (Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

    3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
    (1 Thess 4:16-17)
    3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
    (Rev 19:6-14)

    4R. end of the Gentile Age
    (Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
    4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
    (Revelation 19)

    5R. Tribulation period begins
    5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

    6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
    (1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
    6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
    (Rev 6:12-17)

    7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
    (1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
    7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
    (Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

    8R. Focus: Lord and Church
    (1 Thess 4:13-18)
    8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
    (Romans 11)

    9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
    9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

    10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
    10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
    judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
    judgement.

    11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
    11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

    12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
    12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).



    \o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

    \o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
    Now we beseech you, brethren,
    by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    and by our gathering together unto him,

    Two events mentioned here:
    1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    2) our gathering together unto him

    Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
    Looking for that blessed hope,
    and the glorious appearing of the great God
    and our Saviour Jesus Christ

    Two events mentioned here:
    1) blessed hope
    2) the glorious appearing of the great God
    and our Saviour Jesus Christ


    These two events are mentioned seperately
    throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
    was a mystery in the O.T. is now mentioned
    in the N.T.

    Rapture Passages (the gathering, the blessed hope):

    Matthew 24:31-44
    Mark 13
    Luke 21
    John 14:1-3
    Romans 8:19
    1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
    Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5
    Colossians 3:4
    1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
    2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
    1 Timothy 6:14
    2 Timothy 4:1,8
    Hebrews 9:28
    1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
    1 John 2:28-3:2
    Jude 1:21
    Revelation 2:25

    Second Advent Passages
    (Jesus comes again in power and glory
    to defeat the antichrist and set up the
    millinnial kingdom):

    Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
    Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
    Matthew 13:41
    Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
    Mark 13
    Luke 21
    Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
    1 Thessalonians 3:13
    2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
    1 Peter 4:12-19
    2 Peter 3:1-14
    Jude 1:14-15
    Revelation 4-19
     
  2. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon
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    I would like to know where you studied if it was not DTS.

    Yours,

    Bluefalcon
     
  3. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Ed,

    I have to make a long post to make rebuttal all these of your comment with verses. I am discuss on EVERY verses as you quoted, what these verses are talking about.

    Many pretrib teachers include Dr. Thomas Ice make the chart on the comparing of Rapture & Second Coming with verses, by separate Rapture from second advent, are fill of their own logical and fallacy. Pretrib teacher stress, Christ shall come FOR his saints - rapture, Christ comes WITH saints - second coming. Their arguement is weak and no reasonable to prove there is different comings.

    Paul tells us in 1 Thess. 4:13-14 that we do not be sorrow about our loves one who already died in Christ, they are now with the Lord in the heaven, when Christ shall come, Christ shall BRING WITH his saints from heaven.

    Millions of Christians are already died are now with the Lord in the heaven, when Christ descends from heaven, all Christians will go WITH Christ same - 1 Thess. 4:14-17.

    Then, many Christians who are alive and remain, Christ shall receive them all to meet him at his coming - 1 Thess. 4:17 - very simple and plain.

    John 14:1-3 do not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This passage speaks of Christ's promise to us, that we do not be worry, be cheer, that there are many mansions in God's house, if we doubt, He told us of his promise, He shall come again to receive us WHERE Christ is.

    I have no problem with Revelation 19:14 about second coming. Yes, Christ shall come WITH his Christians from heaven. Right now, millions of CHristians are now with the Lord in the heaven, they will come with Christ in the clouds.

    Your logical of 'FOR' & 'WITH' is no sense to me. Of course, when Christ shall come, He shall receive all alive and remain Christians to meet him in the air. At the same, many Christians who died in Christ are now with the Lord in the heaven, they will come with Christ in the air, so, we shall meet them there.

    Does 1 Thess. 4:15-17 saying when after Christ DESCEND from heaven, then He will ascend back into heaven again??

    Does Acts 1:9-11 saying Christ shall come again- TWICE like as yo-yo's??

    Again, earlier I already discuss about 'For' & 'With'. Millions of Christians who already died are now with the Lord in the heaven, when Christ shall come again, Christ shall bring with them same time.

    Your interpreting of 'end of the world/age' means end of the Gentiles is no sense to me. Christ tells us, we must see the signs first before the end of the age come. Right now, we are in THIS age. This age will be end when Christ comes, and then the next age will be eternality. There are only two ages that God already set up of his plan. Age means period or time. Right now, we are in the last days. The last days will be over when Christ shall come to rise all people form the grave on the LAST day - John 6:39,40,44, & 54.

    We are already in tribulations right now since Early Church to today- John 16:33; Acts 14:22; Romans 4:3-4; 1 Thess. 3:3-4; 2 Thess. 1:3-7; 1 Peter 4:12-16.

    Word, 'Pretribulaiton means before tribulation. If suppose pretribulationism doctrine is correct, then Church never, never taste a tribulation throughout all centuries till Christ comes. Wait a minute, cannot you read the lesson of Church history tells there are so overwhelming that Christians already suffered so many tribulations and persecutions, many were killed for Christ's sake. Are we better than them? If suppose Church never, never taste or experince a tribulation throughout all Centuries, then there is something wrong with Christians.

    John 15:18-20 tell us, why the world hate Christians, because they hate to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, actually they persecuted against Christ BEFORE us. That why, Church have to face tribulations because Christ already suffering and overcome them - John 16:33.

    Kingdom is already present in our age. Mark 1:15- "And saying, The time is FULFILLED, and the kingdom of God is at hand(presence, arrival); REPENT ye, and believe the gospel." Christ started his ministry, and he preached to them, that the kingdom is already arrived. The kingdom is not with the observing in physical, but speak of eternality spiritual come from above for the gospel's sake.

    We are now in the kingdom. We do not have to waiting for the coming of Kingdom at the second coming. Christ already bring kingdom to earth for the gospel's sake. Kingdom is already bring to the Nations(Gentiles), so, they can hear the gospel through us.

    I agree with 1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9; 100%.

    Wrath does not equal with tribulation. Both are different. We are appointed for tribulations - 1 Thess. 3:3-4, but we are not appointed for wrath - 1 Thess. 5:9.

    Wrath is for send people to everlasting fire/punishment because of not believing upon Jesus Christ. John 3:36 tells us, the wrath of God ABIDE upon a person because of not believing on Christ. That means, a person suffering wrath because of reject, sins, and without repent of sins. Wrath is to send people to everlasting punishment - lake of fire.

    We already see signs are happening everywhere over the world since Early Church to today - Matt. 24:3-14. Matt. 24:32-33 tells us, we shall see the signs(doors) know that Lord's coming draw closer, but we do not know when hour or day Christ comes, only God, the Father knows. Even, 2 Thess. 2:1-3 tell us, our gathering together/Lord's coming/day of Christ shall not come till we must see two things to come to past first - apostasy and the revealed of Antichrist. We already see apostasy everywhere since Early Church to today.

    Your teaching is consider to me that you are teaching on Replacement Theology doctrine. Many disps accuse on me and other amils that we teaching Replacement Theology. They are much misunderstanding what we actual believe.

    Pretrib/disp teaching, that God put 'Israel' on the shelf, and God is now focus on 'Church' in this age till Rapture comes. Then, God takes Church out and put Church on the shelf, and then God starts to focus on 'Israel' again for seven year of Tribulation period.

    That is kind type of Replacement Theology dcotrine.

    Replacement Theology teaches that Church replaced Israel, that means there is NO longer 'Israel', but now called, "Church".

    Let's read and study whole context of Romans chapter 11 carefully.

    Romans 11:1 tells us, does God put Jews away? NO! God does not forsake Jews. Obivous, God does not put 'Israel' on the shelf.

    Disp.'s bad habit of its teaching on 'Israel' always meaning Jews who dwell in nation - Israel.

    Romans chapter 11 telling us, God does not forsake Jews. But He removed Jews from the tree, because of their unbelief. But remaining Jews are still on the same tree, because of their belief. God already added believing Gentiles to the same tree to join with believing Jews together. SO, ALL Israel shall be saved is the result by Calvary - Romans 11:25-27.

    Now Gentiles are share with Jews, Gentiles are part of Israel.

    Ephesians 2:12-22 telling us, that we were strangers, spearated from commonwealth of Israel. But NOW Gentiles and Jews are reconciled together become into ONE through Calvary. So, we are now commonwealth of Israel.

    Israel IS Church, Church IS Israel, both are synonymous.

    Later, I discuss on 'Israel' & 'Church' much deeper.

    Satan is ALREADY holding back in the bottomless pit - 2 Thess. 2:6-8; Rev. 17:8; Rev. 20:2,3 & 7). Of course, Satan's job to blind people from hear the gospel, and not let them to see the truth of salvation. But, our job is th carry the gospel to the nations, Satan cannot stop us from spreading the gospel to the world. Because Christ already give power to us to spread the gospel - Matt. 16:18-19; Matt. 28:18-20; & Acts 1:8.

    Satan shall be out of the way, and then to be revealed to decived the nations, and persecute against Church will be much more worst after 'realized millennium' expired, as we shall enter GREAT tribulation will be much more worst than any events of history.

    I ask you, who is 'sheep' of Matt. 25:32,33; 'righteous' of Matt. 25:46??

    The context of 1 Thess. 4:13-18 do not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This passage talks about our concerning about our love ones who already died in Christ, what will happen to them. Paul gives us GOOD NEWS and hope that we need not to be sorrow, when Christ shall come again, He shall BRING WITH his saints, and they who died in Christ, shall be rise from the grave, and then we who are stio alive and remain, shall be caught up to meet Christ, and we shall see our love ones again. That will be a great REUNION DAY!!! That's what comfort for! \0/ Praise the Lord! Amen! \0/

    We do not have to wait for the coming of sorrow. Sorrows already happening right now according to Matt. 24:8 because of the signs with troubles and perecution.

    I understand of Matt. 24:30 & Rev. 1:7 - 'mourn' & 'wail' speaks of unbelievers shall be shocked of seeing Christ appears in the clouds and they shall be weeping because of reject and crucified against Christ, being send them into everlasting fire. Also, they shall be weeping because they who are not watch and ready for Christ's coming, shall be ashamed for Christ, send them into everlasting fire.

    Matt. 24:6 tells us, we shall hear of wars and rumors. History shows us, there are so many wars and rumurs since Early Church to today. Even, we still see wars and rumors are happening right now-good example of war in Iraq.

    Christ's point of Luke 17:26-30; Matt. 24:37-39; & 1 Thess. 5:1-3 teaching us, the condition of world, that people are busy and activity of today's condition compare same as in Noah's day. They are not aware of Christ's coming, they shall be shocked. Same with people in Noah's day. That they were not expect of flood sudden came and took them away. Same thing at Christ's coming, it shall be like as 'thief in the night' for to grab all unbelievers away without expecting - Matt. 24:40-41 & Luke 17:34-37, send them into everlasting fire at the judgment day.

    I better stop for now. I will continue to discuss with rebuttal of your comments on many verses in the next post - part two.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  4. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    To be Continued....

    Ed,

    Many Christians understand 2 Thess. 2:1 tells us, that our gathering together unto him, that would be at Christ's coming same time. 2 Thess 2:1 refers to Matt. 24:30-31 & 1 Thess. 4:15-17. Our gathering together cannot be occured yet till Christ must come first. Our gathering together does not separate from Christ's coming.

    Most pretribbers understand 2 Thess. 2:1 speaks of our gathering together shall be at Christ's coming.

    There is NO gap time in 2 Thess. 2:1. Apostle Paul does not saying there is a gap time between 'our gathering together unto him' & 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ' into seven years. You know that.

    Titus 2:13 does not saying, 'Blessed hope' is for escape from the coming tribulation period. Blessed hope means we are looking forward for eternal life, and our body all shall be changed into glory and immortality - Titus 1:2 & 3:7. Our hope is having eternal life.

    Luke 21:28 & Romans 8:19-23 tell us, that we are eager looking forward for our body to be redemption, that means, we are looking forward for our body shall all changed into immortality, looking for eternal life. That would be at Lord's glorious appearing. Our blessed hope does not separate from Lord's glorious appearing.

    Notice I type, 'AND' into captolized letter, because you often stress on word, 'and' to show us, and prove us, that there are two different events or times. I ask you is Jesus Christ being separated from being God?

    How about Matt. 28:19 tells us, Christ commands us to baptized them in the Father AND the Son AND Holy Spirit? Does this verse telling us, there is THREE GODS???

    Also, how about 1 John 5:7-8?

    Word, 'And' does not always meaning separated into different topic, event, or time. Word, 'and' could also meaning include or adding something within a sentence.

    Apostle Paul does not saying there is a gap time of Titus 2:13 into seven years. Paul tells us, that we are looking forward for our hope that would at Lord's glorious appearing.

    Next post, I will continue discuss on verses of 'Rapture Passages' & 'Second Advent Passages'. I will discuss on all verses what you quoted to comparing between rapture & second coming. We have to looking at all verses as you quoted, let these saying. We have to be careful while we reading these verses, many of us easy misunderstanding what these verses actual talking about. Many of us easy misinterpreting these, what these are not actual talking about.

    There are so many holes and errors within pretrib doctrine. Because they use their own logicals and guesswork too much.

    I will discuss on these verses in the next post.

    To be Continued.....

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  5. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    To be Continued...

    Ed,

    Let's start with Matt. 24:31-44. Many times, for over two years, I told you, that you did not follow Hermenutic Rule: Intepreting in CONTEXTUALLY. You already separate Matt. 24:31 from verse 29-30. You called Matt. 24:31, 'pretrib' gathering together. How do you know Christ telling us of Matt. 24:31 shall be occur BEFORE tribulation? You have to be aware of many pretribbers might not agree with you on Matt. 24:31 speak of 'pretrib gathering'. Most pretribbers are aware of Matt. 24:31 speaks of gathering together of the elect will be AFTER the tribulation, because of its context back to Matt. 24:29 says, "Immediately AFTER the tribulation..." Christ does not saying that He shall come BEFORE tribulation find anywhere in the context of Matthew chapter 24, you know that. No way, you can prove Matt. 24:31 telling us, that we shall be gathering together BEFORE tribulation, because Christ does not saying it. You just make up in your own intepreting with logical.

    You quote of Mark chapter 13 on Rapture passage. I ask you a question, can you find a verse in the context of Mark chapter 13 saying that we will be rapture BEFORE tribulation?? What about Mark 13:24-27?? Does Christ saying, He shall come BEFORE tribulation of Mark 13:24?

    You quoted of Luke 21 on rapture passage. I ask you a question, show me where in the context of Luke chapter 21 saying Christ shall come BEFORE tribulation?

    I am aware of Luke 21:36 as pretribbers quoted this verse to prove pretrib rapture, because of word, 'escape all these things that shall come to pass' speak of rapture being escape from coming tribulations and wrath.

    Luke 21:36 tells us, we must be WATCH and pray, because we all shall stand before the Son of man -judgment day. OR... what if we do not watch and pray, we shall suffer punishment while face Jesus Christ sits on the throne to judge us.

    Notice Luke 21:28 tells us, when we see these things(signs) to come to pass THEN, we shall look up for our body to be redemption, speak of rapture. We must see the signs appear first include cosmic disturbance, then, we will look up for our body of redemption. But, we do not know what hour or day, Christ comes, only God, the Father knows. We must always be wtach be ready, because we shall all appear face the judgment seat of Christ.

    You quoted of John 14:1-3. John 14:1-3 does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This passage talks about Christ's promise to us, that there are many mansions in Father's house - New Jerusalem in heaven. If we doubt, Christ told us so, Christ shall come again to receive us where Christ is. We shall dwell in New Jerusalem at Christ's coming. I am looking forward for New Jerusalem descend from heaven, land on new earth, and we shall dwell in that place - Rev. 21:1-8.

    You quoted of Romans 8:19. The context of Romans 8:19-23 telling us, that we are eager looking forward for our body shall all changed int immortality and have etternal life same with Luke 21:28; Titus 1:2, 2:13, & 3:7. That would be at Lord's coming.

    You quoted of 1 Cor. 1:7-8. It does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This passage speaks of we must be blameless and walking godly and shall not be ashamed at Lord's coming.

    You quoted of 1 Cor. 15:51-53. This passage does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. But, Paul tells us, our body all shall be changed into immortality at the LAST trumpet, it supports Matt. 24:31; Rev. 10:7; & 11:15 too. Our body all shall be changed after the last trumpet sounded after the tribulation(Matt. 24:29-31).

    Also, 'twinkling of an eye' shows us, HOW QUICK, that our body all shall be changed, and this shows us, about the mystery of rapture. Because, we have no idea what rapture would be looks like, it is not yet occured.

    You quoted of 1 Cor. 16:22. I aware of Pretribbers use word, 'Maranatha' in Greek means, our Lord comes. This verse does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. Also, this verse talking about if any person does not love the Lord, let person be accused or damned(judged. In the observing of 1 Cor. 16:22 talks about if a person do not love the Lord, let person be judged at Lord's coming - judgement day.

    You quoted of Phil. 3:20-21. This passage does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This passage speaks of our manner and beahvior be like as in the heaven, that we are eager looking forward for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ same with Titus 2:13. Phil 3:21 speaks of our body all shall be changed into immortality to be like Jesus Christ, as it refers with Luke 21:28; Romans 8:19-23; 1 Cor. 15:51-53; & 1 John 3:2.

    You quoted of Phil. 4:5. This verse do NOTHING with the coming of Christ! This verse talking about our testimony and be kind to others, as Lord is control everything in his hand.

    You quoted of Col. 3:4. This passage does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This verse talk about, Jesus Christ already risen from the death, He is our eternal life and our firstfruit of resurrection, Christ shall APPEAR, then we shall be appear with Christ, that would be at Lord's coming, when we all shall be caught up to meet him in the air, and shall have glory new body to be like Christ.

    You quoted of 1 Thess. 1:10. This verse does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. Thos verse tells us, that we are eager looking forward for the coming of Christ, that He shall deliver us from the wrath to come. Wrath is for to punish all people who do not believe on Jesus Christ, will send to everlasting punishment in the lake of fire at Christ's coming(2 Thess. 1:7-9).

    You quoted of 1 Thess. 2:19. This verse does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This verse tells us, that we are looking forward for our hope of eternal life, and we shall all presence before the Lord at His coming. This verse is same with Titus 1:2, 2:13; & 3:7- 'hope' speaks of shall have eternal life, and our body all shall be changed into immortality shall be at Lord's coming.

    No need to discuss on 1 Thess. 4:13-18. I already discuss on this passage earlier. This passage have do NOTHING with the TIMING. This passage talk about our concerning about our love ones who already died in Christ, what will happen to them at Lord's coming. Paul gives us good news and to comfort us, that we do not be sorrow of them. They who already died in Christ, now are with the Lord in the heaven, when Christ shall comes, He shall bring with them, and they shall be risen from the grave, and we all shall be caught up in the air, and we shall see our love ones again, that would a great reunion day!! \0/ Praise the Lord! Amen! \0/

    You quoted of 1 Thess. 5:9. This verse does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This verse tells us, God does not appointed us for wrath, because we received salvation through Jesus Christ - eternal life. OR.. if we do not believing on Jesus Christ, shall not have eternal life, will suffer the wrath of God, send us into everlasting punishment - lake of fire.

    1 Thess. 5:23 does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This verse talks about our whole spirit and soul and body be PERSERVED blameless UNTO the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. That means, we must be godly life, and walking holy, and be blameless. So, we shall not be ashamed at the judgement day at Lord's coming. Or, if we do not preserved our spirit and soul and body, and not walking godly, and remain in sins, we shall be judged and be accused at Lord's coming, cast into everlasting life.

    2 Thess. 1:7 does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. The context of 2 Thess. 1:4-10 talking about, that we shall not be rest from persecutions and tribulations TILL Jesus shall come with his angels, and will send all persecutors who persecute against us, cast into the everlasting fire that will be at Lord's coming same with Matt. 25:31-33, 46; & Rev. 14:9-11. 2 Thess. 1:3-10 telling us very clear, that we shall not be rest from persecutions and tribulations TILL Christ shall come WITH his angels, and then send all unbelievers into everlasting fire is posttrib coming.

    2 Thess. 2:1 does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. But, the context of 2 Thess. 2:1-3 telling us very clear, our gathering together/Lord's coming/day of Christ shall NOT come till we must see two things to come to passed first - apostasy and the revealed of antichrist.

    2 Thess. 2:3 ' word, 'falling away' is not mean of rapture. 'Falling away' in Greek word, #646 apostasia means, depart from faith, depart from truth. We already see the signs of apostasy everywhere in the world since Early Church to today.

    1 Tim. 6:14 does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This verse talks about we must keep the commandment of God, and without blame and walking godly, to be endure TILL the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ. We must be endure and be faithful, and live godly daily TILL we die or Lord comes - Rev. 3:2-3. OR... what if we do not keep the commandment of God, and remain in sins without repent. He shall come and thief upon us, to cast us away into everlasting fire.

    2 Tim. 4:1,8 does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. BUT, notice 2 Tim. 4:1 says, "I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ who SHALL JUDGE the quick and the dead AT his appearing and his kingdom." Clear, this verse telling us, there shall be a general judgement day for both believers and unbelievers. 1 Tim. 4:1 supports John 5:27-29; Dan. 12:2; and Matt. 25:31-46. 1 Tim. 4:1 speaks of the only ONE judgement day, not two or three judgment days according disp/pretrib teaching. Also, 1 Tim. 4:1 tells us, Christ shall be appearing - ONCE, not twice. 2 Tim. 4:8 does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This verse talks about the judgment day, and all of us(Christians) love Christ at His appearing.

    Hebrews 9:28 does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. Also, this verse does not saying Christ shall appear THREE times according to pretrib teaching. Pretrib teaches there are two phases of the second advent, or split comings. Bible does not support pretrib's teaching. Heb. 9:28 tells us, Christ shall appear - SECOND time. That means, Christ shall come again - ONCE, not twice.

    1 Peter 1:7, 13 do not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This passage talks about our faith, and we shall have trials, and we must be ENDURE till the end. 1 Peter 1:13 is refers to Matt. 24:13 telling us, that we must be endure TILL the end. Notice 1 Peter 1:13 says, "...be SOBER, and hope TO THE END shall be at the REVELATION of Jesus Christ.

    Christ's coming shall not be a secert. His coming shall be visibly. The world will SEE Christ appears in the clouds with power and glory - Matt. 24:30 & Rev. 1:7.

    1 Peter does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This verse talks about when Jesus Christ shall appear, we shall receive reward, which not fade away. We are looking foward for the appearing of Jesus Christ, and get reward, if we not quit, and give up. We must be faithful till the end then we shall have victory and overcome them, have eternal life at Christ's appearing.

    1 John 2:28-3:2 do not saying about the TIMING of Christs coming. This passage talking about we should be confidence, and not be ashamed at his appearing, that means, we must be blameless and walking godly faithfully till the appearing of Jesus Christ. OR... what if we do not confidence in Jesus Christ, and do not walking godly, shall be ashamed at Christ's appearing, shall cast into everlasting fire.

    Jude 1:21 does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This verse tells us, we must keep ourselves be holy life and walking godly, and to keep the commandment of God, and looking forward for the blessed hope - eternal life. We not yet have eternal life. We are still in battle right now, as we are still on the road - Matt. 7:13-14; & Luke 13:24. Christ warns us, most of them will easy give up in the middle of the road, will not make into eternal life. Many will be ended up into destruction - everlasting fire.

    Rev. 2:25 does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This verse tells us, we MUST stand and fast be faithful, and endure TILL Christ comes. OR... what if, we do not standfast, and endure till the end or Christ comes, we shall not be saved - Matt. 24:13; & 1 Peter 1:13.

    There are so overwhelming in the Bible warning us of conditional salvation, no way we can ignore warnings, We must take heed warnings, and obey the commandment of God, so, we shall NOT be ashamed at Lord's coming for the judgement day.

    In the next post, I will continue discuss more on Second Advent passages with all verses as what you quoted them. I will discuss on all of these verses, what these actual saying.

    To be Continued...

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    To be Continued...

    Let's discuss on second advent passages with verses.

    Daniel 2:44-45 say nothing about the TIMING of Christ's coming. The context of Dan. 2:30-45 talking about King Nebuchhadnezzar's vision of the image of statute. There are four parts of statute's body which are represent four kingdoms. First kingdom -Babylon (I am not good in the year of the history in the Old Testament period)I think in year around 520 to 490 B.C. - Babylon Empire. Second Kingdom - Assyria Empire in year around 420 B.C. - 350 B.C. Third Kingdom - Greece Enpire(Alexander, the Great). Fourth Kingdom - Roman Empire year around 200 B.C. to Christ's time(Roman Empire became divided around 400 A.D.). After the fourth kingdom, then Christ came and throw all kingdoms, and he already set kingdom as He begun his ministry - Mark 1:15. This kingdom is an eternality, have no end. We are already in kingdom of God/heaven. This is not an observing, but spiritually from above, that Christ already brought it through the gospel. That Gentiles can see the kingdom of salvation after calvary.

    Dan. 2:44-45 have do nothing with Christ's coming. It talks about eternality kingdom.

    Dan. 7:9-14 do not saying about the TIMING of Christ. This passage talking about the great white throe, muiltitude of people shall stand face Christ sits on white throne, and to judge them. Christ bring an eternality kingdom.

    Premil limited physical kingdom upon earth for only 1,000 years at Christ's coming. Bible does not saying that. Christ already brought kingdom as He begun his ministry in Mark 1:15, and kingdom remains forever and ever without end.

    Dan. 12:1-3 do not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This passage speak of a general judgment and resurrection of both unbelievers and believers. This passage supports Matt. 25:31-46; John 5:27-29; & 2 Tim. 4:1. And this passage speaks of the only ONE judgement day and ONE resurrection day.

    Zech. 12:10 does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. The context of Zech. 12:9-14 talking about the judgment day(great white throne) there shall be divided among Israel/Church, some shall cast into everlasting punishment, some shall have everlasting life. This passage supports Matt. 25:31-46; John 5:27-29; 2 Tim. 4:1; & Rev. 20:11-15.

    Zechariah 14:1-15 do not saying about the TIMING of Christ. Recently, I learned the context of Zechariah chapter 14 already fulfilled at Calvary. Let you know, I am NOT either partial or full preterism. I understand what the context of Zechariah chapter 14 talks about. I will make a new topic discuss on Zechariah chapter 14 other time this week, to explain about this very deep.

    Matt. 24:15-30 does not saying about the timing of Christ's coming. Again, I told you, you still break Hermenutic Rule - Intepreting in contextually. You always separated Matt. 24:31 from Matt. 24:29-30 speak of clear posttrib coming of Christ. How can you prove that Christ saying that we shall be gathering together BEFORE tribulation of Matt. 24:31?? Matt. 24:29-31 telling us very clear, Christ shall come immediately AFTER tribulation to gathering us together is posttrib coming.

    Matt. 26:64 does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This verse tlaking about Jesus told to the high priest, that He is true Messiah, the Son of God. And He shall come and to judge the world. Christ made high priest very angry. Because he does not believe Christ is the truly Messiah, he thinks Christ is only a human.

    Mark 13:24-27 tells us, Christ shall come AFTER tribulation. Earlier, you quoted Mark 13 of rapture passage. But, you did not show me where verse in Mark chapter 13 saying Christ shall come BEFORE tribulation. Clear, Mark 13:24-27 telling us, Christ shall come AFTER tribulation is posttrib coming.

    Luke 21:28 tells us, when AFTER these things come to passed, THEN we looked up for our redemption. This verse supports Romans 8:19-23 speak of our body all shall be changed at Christ's coming. Luke 21:36 tells us, we must WATCH and pray so, that we shall escape from all things to come, because we all shall stand before Christ. OR... what if, we do NOT watch and pray, then we shall face sufferings and stand before Jesus Christ, cast us into everlasting fire.

    Acts 1:9-11 do not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This passage telling us, two angels told disciples, they watched Christ ascend into the heaven, this SAME Jesus shall come again in the SAME way, as they saw Christ ascend into the heaven. This passage does not saying Christ shall come again like as yo-yo's. This passage telling us, Christ shall come again - ONCE, not twice.

    Acts 3:19-21 does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This passage talking about we must repent of our sins, because everything shall be destroyed at Christ's coming, and Christ shall created new heavens and a new earth according 2 Peter 3:10-13.

    i Thess. 3:13 does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This verse talks about we must be blameless and walking godly, and not be ashamed at Christ's coming with his angels. (Please look to Mark 8:38 tells the same as 1 Thess 3:13 says).

    2 Thess. 1:6-10 do not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. Earlier, you quoted 2 Thess 1:7 of Rapture Passage. Wait a minute..... you quoted 2 Thess. 1:6-10, that means you include verse 7 in THIS CONTEXT of verse 6 to 10 speak of posttrib coming?! 2 Thess. 1:4-10 telling us very clear that we shall NOT be rest from persecutions, tribulations TILL Christ shall come with angels, and shall cast all unbelievers into everlasting fire that would be at Lord's coming is posttrib coming! - Matt 25:31-46; & Rev. 14:9-11.

    2 Thess. 2:8 does not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. I agree on 2 Thess. 2:8 speaks of Christ's coming shall be AFTER Satan's revealed - context of 2 Thess. 2:3-7. Satan shall be destroyed at Christ's coming, that mean, Satan shall be cast into the lake of fire- Rev. 20:10.

    Didn't you realize that 1 Peter 4:12-13 speak TOWARD to us as Christians?!! We must face trials, persecutions, and tribulations, so we should be suffer as Christians follow Christ's example - 1 Peter 4:16; & 1 Peter 2:21.

    2 Peter 3:1-14 do not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. The last days scoffers do not talking about TWO comings or split coming of Christ. They speaking of where is God's promise of HIS COMING. They speak of the only ONE future coming of Christ. Very simple and plain. Also, 2 Peter 3:10-13 tells us, we are eager looking forward for new heavens and a new earth, after old heavens and old earth shall be destroyed AT Lord's coming, not supposed 1000 years apart between Christ's coming and future new heavens and a new earth. New heavens and a new earth will be created by follow at Christ's coming after the judgement day passed.

    So, 2 Peter 3:14 tells us, that we must be blameless and be ready at Lord's coming, so, we shall not be ashamed at Christ's coming.

    Jude 1:14-15 do not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This passage speak of the only ONE future coming of Christ, to judge all people of the world - general judgement.

    Enoch, the prophet wrote this passage before Flood. He does not see there is split comings or two phases of Christ's coming. He saw only one future coming of Christ to judge the world.

    Revelation chapter 4 to 19 do not saying anything about the TIMING of Christ's coming.

    Rev. 4:1 does not saying about Christ descend out from heaven as coming. Neither, Rev. 4:1 saying, we all shall be caught up, and does not mentioned of 'resurrection'. Rev. 4:1-2 speak of John, himself had a experince in his vision as he received the revelation from Jesus Christ, that he was called up only by the angel. Angel told John, to come up and show him to see the future things same with Rev. 17:1; & Rev. 21:9.

    Word, 'come hither' does not mean rapture. It means, ask to a person, please come here- very simple.

    Rev. 4:1 have do nothing with rapture or coming. Rev. 4:1-2 speak of John was called up, and to show him to see the future things by in the visions - revelation.

    Also, Pretrib argue, there is none word- 'church' find anywhere in Revelation 4 to 19, prove that Church is already gone up in the heaven. But, John, the Beloved never saying the word, 'Church' is appear UP IN THE HEAVEN. Either. Also, John tells us, he saw Satan shall war against saints - Rev. 13:7,10. Obivously, it speaks of Satan shall war against Church. Church must go through tribulations FIRST before Christ comes according to Matt. 24:29-31.

    That's all Folks!

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    DeafPosttrib: "Acts 1:9-11 do not saying about the TIMING of Christ's coming. This passage telling us, two angels told disciples, they watched Christ ascend into the heaven, this SAME Jesus shall come again in the SAME way, as they saw Christ ascend into the heaven. This passage does not saying Christ shall come again like as yo-yo's. This passage telling us, Christ shall come again - ONCE, not twice."

    The English in this statement does not limit Jesus to
    one and only one return. The statement is of the
    same form as "the sun will rise in the east".
    The sun will come us as many times as God wants;
    Jesus will come as many times as the unalterable plan
    of God requires.
     
  8. Ed Edwards

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    DeafPosttrib: "Satan is ALREADY holding back
    in the bottomless pit ... "

    Scripture disagrees with your conclusion
    1 Peter 5:8 (HCSB)
    Be sober! Be on the alert! Your adversary the Devil
    is prowling around like a roaring lion,
    looking for anyone he can devour.
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    DeafPosttrib: "There are so many holes and
    errors within pretrib doctrine."

    Those holes are holes in your understanding, not in
    the pretribulation rapture/resurrection hope.

    BTW, when one says what is NOT in a verse, one
    could write whole books -- most of what is in the
    universe (whether physical or spiritual) is NOT
    in each verse.

    Two dozen times you arge that the verse i gave does NOT
    show the timing of Christ's coming. You are correct on
    each one. However, you win hollow points cause NOBODY
    said that those verses show the timing of
    Christ's comings. Their are verses that show the
    relative timing of the two comings of Christ - but
    most do not. However, if the two items are described
    differently, then they are two different items.
    The verses i gave describe two different purposes
    for Christ's comings. Some eschatological writers note
    the two reasons and say that both happen the same time
    in a 24-hour day. I say both happen at the same
    time in a 7-year day: the rapture/resurrection opening
    the day of Christ the coming in power and glory
    to destroy the antichrist in the works of evil at
    the close of the day of Christ.

    SO my Brother in Christ, 90% of your argument is
    foolish and vain. Can you tell me how you
    teach salvation an hope and the post-trib dispair to
    people in the same lecture. By contrast the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection is full of hope and glory for Christ.
     
  10. DeafPosttrib

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    Ed,

    To be honest with me, do you actual seeing Acts 1:9-11 saying, Christ shall come again two times?

    Let you know, my self and all amils believe 1 Peter 5:8 100%. I believe Satan is war against us -spiritual warfare everyday since early Church to now. He is trying to destroy us, and also, try to take us to hell. One thing, he cannot touch our soul. Because he have no power to take our soul away, only God can, according to Matt. 10:28.


    And, Bible called Satan, prince of the air. Satan is still around anywhere right - spiritual. Satan is invisible, also he is an angel. Bible called him, 'angel of light'.

    Of course, I believe Satan is a REAL person, not just a 'ghost'.

    Bible have lot of mysteries. Hard to understand. But, we have to believe what these saying with our faith.

    Remembe, during Old Testament time, Jesus does not have body, He was angelic, spirit. When Christ came to earth, into Mary's womb. He became flesh as man like us. Hard to understand, it is a mystery. But, we have to believe and have faith what the Bible saying.

    During Old Testament time, Satan decived all nations. Because Gentiles were not yet introuce to join commonwealth of Israel, they were strangers & aliens. When Christ came to earth, He brough salvation to Gentiles. Now, Gentiles can see the salvation. Also, Gentiles now finally can have power given from Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit (Matt. 16:18-19; 28:18-20; & Acts 1:8). Gentiles now have power to bring the gospel of salvation to the nations. Satan cannot stop Gentile Christians from spreading the gospel to the world. Satan is now being LIMITED(spirit limited) from deceive the nations, because Church already have power given by Jesus Christ to bring the gospel spread over all nations. That why, Satan is now holding back from being to be revealed and deceive the nations. Wait till Christians getting weaker and forsaking the Lord, revivals getting fade away, churches closed. God knows when the right time to come, then He shall allow Satan out of the way, and then to deceive the nations - 2 Thess. 2:3-12.

    How can you prove to us, that 'day of Christ' into 7 years? Please show me the scriptures, why you believe 'day of Christ' being stretch into 7 years.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  11. Ed Edwards

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    DeafPosttrib: "To be honest with me, do you
    actual seeing Acts 1:9-11 saying, Christ shall
    come again two times?"

    This passage does NOT say Christ shall come again two times.
    This passage does NOT say Christ shall come
    again only one time. Both the one time only and the two
    times case are covered here. What it does say is that
    Christ shall come again at least once, but it could be more.
    This passage does NOT tell who is the safe bet for the
    Orange Bowl in 3 weeks, so i won't be betting on it.
    There is danger in believing what a passage does NOT say.
    And the thought that this passage teaches one and only one
    again-coming of Christ is an error. This passage teaches
    that Christ shall come again, NOT how
    many times he shall come again.

    DeafPosttrib: "Bible have lot of mysteries.
    Hard to understand. But, we have to believe
    what these saying with our faith."

    Yes, Brother, you are right. But first you gotta figure out what
    they are saying with your head. This passage does NOT limit
    Messiah to one and only one return.

    DeafPosttrib: "How can you prove to us,
    that 'day of Christ' into 7 years? Please show
    me the scriptures, why you believe 'day of Christ'
    being stretch into 7 years."

    No, i cannot prove to you using scripture that
    "day of Christ" = 7 years. But the scripture does not make
    sense if you equate "day of Christ" = the Millinnial (1000 year)
    Kingdom of Christ. The scriptures made no sense
    if you equate "day of Christ" = "rapture/resurrection 24-hour
    period". The scriptures make no sense if you set
    "day of Christ" = "day of the Lord". The scripture only
    make sense when you set "day of CHrist" = "7 year day of
    the Tribulation Period". As we have time, we will explore all
    those assumptions and see how each but one leads to foolishness.

    Daniel 12:1-2 (HCSB):

    At that time
    Michael the great prince
    who stands watch over your people will rise up.
    There will be a time of distress
    such as never has occurred
    since nations came into being until that time.
    But at that time all your people
    who are found written in the book will escape.

    2 Many of those who sleep in the dust
    of the earth will awake,
    some to eternal life,
    and some to shame and eternal contempt.

    This shows one resurrection of the dead related
    to a "time of distress" (i.e. Tribualtion Period).
    Yet we knew from Revelation 20 that there is
    a 1,000 year long Millinnial Kingdom of Christ
    between the first resurrection (of the just)
    and the second resurrection (of the unjust).
    Obviously from that far off place where Daniel
    saw the future it looked like the two where together.
    But the Apostle John saw them seperated.
    Likewise, i beleive the "day of Christ" must be
    7-years long - the Tribulation Period between
    the two seperate comings of Christ (i.e. the
    "day of Christ" is the binder that binds the
    comings of Christ into one coming).
     
  12. trailblazer

    trailblazer
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    DeafPosttrib

    I enjoyed your views on this subject, however please do not be offended if I make a suggestion to you. While reading your input, I found myself concentrating more on the grammar which kept me from following the flow of the message. Perhaps if you reviewed it before posting it, it would be more understandable. Just a suggestion - your input is too valuable.
     
  13. HankD

    HankD
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    Brethren, IMO all the disagreement and yes, confusion among us, concerning the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is related to Jesus words:

    Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    But as long as we don't do the name calling thing, it's a good place of fellowship and study concerning the many views. Fascinating in fact, at least to me.

    He did leave commandment to be obeyed however:

    Matthew 13
    33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
    34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
    35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
    36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

    37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

    HankD
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Recall that
    Brother DeafPosttrib is deaf. His
    primary language is American Sign Language (ASL),
    his secondary language is written English.
    Personally i don't even have a second language. :confused:

    Anyway, things like "prophesy" and
    "prophecy" are both signed just alike
    in ASL without regard to part of
    speach (the "s" denotes the verb form).
     
  15. trailblazer

    trailblazer
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    Ed,

    Thank you for the clarification.
     
  16. OldRegular

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    There is no difference in Scripture between the rapture and the Second coming. Any difference is a figment of the imagination of John Darby which, with the Scofield Bible, has duped many people.
     
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular
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    There is no difference in Scripture between the rapture and the Second coming. Any difference is a figment of the imagination of John Darby which, with the Scofield Bible, has duped many people.
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Please.
    Did you notice we have already gone to the
    next level of this discussion?

    Please comment on the following
    specific differences.

    Moderators: I have to repeat part of the
    first post because it was totally ignored
    before.

    ----------------------------------------
    Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
    with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
    to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
    Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

    1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
    (John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
    1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

    2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
    2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
    (Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

    3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
    (1 Thess 4:16-17)
    3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
    (Rev 19:6-14)

    4R. end of the Gentile Age
    (Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
    4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
    (Revelation 19)

    5R. Tribulation period begins
    5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

    6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
    (1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
    6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
    (Rev 6:12-17)

    7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
    (1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
    7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
    (Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

    8R. Focus: Lord and Church
    (1 Thess 4:13-18)
    8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
    (Romans 11)

    9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
    9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

    10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
    10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
    judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
    judgement.

    11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
    11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

    12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
    12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).
    ----------------------------------------

    Do you think these scriptures don't teach
    these differences? If so show how the scripturs
    do NOT show what i claim.

    Do you have a definition of "day" that is
    7 (some say 3½) years long?
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    ed: --------------------------------------------------
    2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV 1873):
    Now we bessech you, brethren, by the coming of our LOrd
    Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

    Two events mentioned here:
    1)the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    2)our gathering together unto him
    --------------------------------------------------------

    DeafPosttrib://Many Christians understand 2 Thess. 2:1 tells us, that our gathering together unto him, that would be at Christ's coming same time. 2 Thess 2:1 refers to Matt. 24:30-31 & 1 Thess. 4:15-17. Our gathering together cannot be occured yet till Christ must come first. Our gathering together does not separate from Christ's coming.

    "Many" i take to mean 20-49%, "Most" means 50-99%, "All" means 100%
    I believe that MOST Christians understand 2 Thess. 2:1 to mean
    seperate time gathering and Second Coming to destroy Antichirst.
    This majority also believe that the gathering and Second Coming
    are in the same day (that day is 7 /some say 3½/ years long).

    DeafPosttrib://Most pretribbers understand 2 Thess. 2:1 speaks of our gathering together shall be at Christ's coming.\\

    I agree. This majority also believe that the gathering and Second Coming
    are in the same day (that day is 7 /some say 3½/ years long).
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    ed: --------------------------------------------------------
    12R. relative peace and prosperity (Lk 17:26-30)
    12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen (Matt. 24:21-22)
    -------------------------------------------------------------

    Deafposttrib: //Matt. 24:6 tells us, we shall hear of wars and rumors.
    History shows us, there are so many wars and rumurs since
    Early Church to today. Even, we still see wars and
    rumors are happening right now-good example of war in Iraq.//

    I agree with you. You must then agree with me.
    These two events are different, as shown by the scriptures listed.

    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the whole time of the
    Church Age from the day of Pentacost 33AD even unto this
    day in 2004. So your statement is true from 33AD to 2004AD.
    But the truth of that statement DOES NOT say that my
    contention was not correct.

    Which part of "relative" are you having conceptional difficulty
    with?
     

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