Rapture = Second Coming?

one's view of the church influences his view of the second coming. if the church is viewed as new and was a replacement as the body responsible for the dissemination of the gospel due to the disobeidience of the jews, then most who cling to this believe the rapture of the church to be different from the second coming.

take note that the second coming of Jesus Christ is for the Jews alone as a fulfillement of God's promise. it's not for the church, nor with it. however, the scriptures teach of the church-age believers being caught up in the air, thus the rapture. therefore, if one holds the church to be a new entity in the old testament, then it's rapture being different from the second coming makes good sense, and a clear outline, distinction and connection among different parts of the bible.

 

Oldreg, please compare John 14:1-3 and I Thess. 4:13-17 with Matthew 24 and Revelation 19.

You will note several things. One of those things is that in Christ's return mentioned in John, he will take us back to heaven.

Then, note that Matthew 24 and Revelation 19 he comes to the earth to stay.

What is so significant is that the saints in heaven (Revelation 5:10) are told that they will reign UPON THE EARTH.

Imagine that, the saved in heaven will (in the future) reign upon the earth.

Tell me, when did those saint's reign upon the earth?

 

then it's rapture, being different from the second coming, makes good sense, AKI,

Could you please give the Scripture references that you use as a foundation for your beliefs on the following that you say;

1) " take note that the second coming of Jesus Christ is for the Jews alone...

2) ...as a fulfillement of God's promise."

3) "It's not for the church,

4) ...nor with it."

5) "However, the scriptures teach of the church-age believers being caught up in the air, thus the rapture."

 

then it's rapture, being different from the second coming, makes good sense, AKI,

Could you please give the Scripture references that you use as a foundation for your beliefs on the following that you say;

1) " take note that the second coming of Jesus Christ is for the Jews alone...

2) ...as a fulfillement of God's promise."

3) "It's not for the church,

4) ...nor with it."

5) "However, the scriptures teach of the church-age believers being caught up in the air, thus the rapture."

 

We will receive glorified bodies like Jesus has when raptured, can you give me any sound reason for co-existing with earthlings when we have immortal bodies?

 

Um, you mean besides the fact that Revelation 5:10 says so?

 

most versions have "on the earth," while Darby and the Amplified Bible have "over" the earth." The same Greek word epi is properly translated "on" or "upon" or "over" as it is in Rev. 2:26.

In the Scriptures from Acts to Jude the Church is never associated with earthly things during the Trib or Mill. Our union with Christ and our future presence with him is always depicted as a heavenly one.

 

I was waiting for the DTS (Dallas Theological Seminary) answer, too. Sadly DTS is now going progressive in their dispensationalism. GTS (Grace Theological Seminary) is still holding the line though as far as I can tell. Pretty sure that TTU (Tenn Temple, much less prestigious that the other two) is holding strong as well.

Ed E, no doubt in those 52 years you have read L.S. Chafer, C.I. Scofield, J. Waalvoord, C. Ryrie et. al.

Re extent of this question: It is boxed now, waiting for office to get built, but Waalvoord's, "The Rapture Question" was almost 400 pages, if my memory serves me correctly. This is a BIG one!

Would also suggest that the only specific sign in Matt 24 is the Abomination of Desolation from Daniel 9. The rest are general signs that have not clear time of fulfillment. Would also caution that Matt 24 DOES NOT ADDRESS THE RAPTURE AT ALL!!! The ones taken are taken in judgement, not deliverance. In the Olivet Discourse, you did not want to be taken, you wanted to be left behind!

Just found this site yesterday! A lot more here to comment on, out of time.

 

So, you just read the Bible? You do not ready any conservative Bible believing, Bible teaching theologians and you did not go to any Bible College, Seminary, etc?

Agree and teach much of what you have written. But, Matthew does not really give the detail on when the temple will be destroyed, Luke does, 21:20. Nothing in Matthew 24-25 decisively fits AD 70. Luke 21 does.

Gathering of 24:31 fits second coming to earth at endo of trib, but does not fit the rapture for following reasons:

Out of line with chronology of vss 29 to 30 – “after the tribulation of the those days...” From earlier posts I do not recall that you argued for a post trib rapture.

Does not fit with coming for His saints – “all tribes of the earth mourn... they shall see... power and great glory...” These are elements of second coming to earth.

The ones “taken” are not taken in deliverance, they are taken in judgement. Noe (Noah) was left, not taken.

Does not fit with the last part of Matt 23, the next time the Jewish Nation sees Him will be when they say, “blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord”. This does not fit with rapture. It fits with second coming.
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I believe the gathering of 24:31 fits the gathering of the Jews before the Millenium when they mourn for the One they pierced (Zech 12:10) and when God brings them all back to the promised land (Deut 30:1-10). See the parallel passage in Luke 21 also.

I do understand that you apply the gathering to the rapture rather than the second coming to earth from your outline. Give me some reasons from the text for such an application, I could not find any.

 

Come on Ed, loosen up will ya.

The Church did not exist at the time of Mt. 24

It was still a mystery at that time.

The disciples could not of associated the Church
with the things in Mt. 24. Ignorance prevailed among the disciples.

The context is Israel and the Jews living in Jerusalem.


Where do you see the Church in 24? I don't see it anywhere.

 

Oh, forgot to mention that "elect" fits Israel better in this context than it fits NT believers.

 

Pretty sure I found 63 kais in Matt 24. Not sure which one you mean? Did not see Granville Sharp anywhere, I looked. Could you please be more specific?

Oh, and regarding a sign preceding the “end of the age”, how can the abomination of desolation in the midst of the 70th week not be a sign clearly given in the OD? Another reason that the “gathering” cannot be the rapture.

Luke 21 clearly puts the end of the “times of the gentiles” before the “coming of the son of man” and the “redemption” (I read gathering, return, New Covenant, etc) of Israel (see 21:24,27-28).

 

Sorry, did not catch your distinction between 2nd coming and rapture in 24:30-32. I have a problem with reading too fast sometimes.

Having looked at it, still does not think it fits. Way out of sequence. Not only that, "from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt 24:31) sure fits well with "If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee" (Deut 30:4).

Just cannot get rapture out of that.... IMHO

 

rjprince

Here's OT Scriptures supporting the "elect" as Jews. Would like ED to look these up.

Deu. 30:1-11
Mic. 2:12
Amos 9:14-15
Hos. 9:10
Isa. 43:5-7; 49:22; 66:20
Jer. 23:3; 31:8
Eze. 36:24-27

 

And, for an engineer who has not done Bible College and Seminary, I would say that you have an incredible grasp of the Word of God and you ought to be teaching in your church in some capacity!

The fact that I disagree with you on this not withstanding! Oh, sorry about the Granville-Sharp thing. If you have not have at least 2nd year Greek grammar you may not know what that is. I assumed, based on your grasp and ability to communicate the word that you had some seminary. That you don't will gain you much more respect IMHO!