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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, Mar 4, 2013.
Where do you stand on the last days?
Several views are indicated here on Wiki
Post trib rapture, literal 1000 year reign.
Edit: let me also add that I do not believe in a 7 year period that would be singled out as the Tribulation or Great Tribulation. So basically Christ returns, gathers the Elect and the Heavenly Kingdom "invades" the earth all at the end of this age.
Though Amill does have some good points so I could see that being possible.
Pre trib. I believe this is the view Jesus taught when He gave Sodom & Gomorrah and the times of Noah as his examples.
Premill, Pretrib,literal 1000 year reign.
Why is that? Because if anything the Sodom & Gomorrah supports Post-trib i think. The righteous rescued by angels just before the total annihilation of the wicked, no second chance and not secretive.
The righteous in both situations were spared any judgement. Our wrath was already placed on Christ on the cross. Since we are in Christ, and He in us, to say that God would place His Son under further wrath nullifies the work of the cross.
No rapture in the dispensational sense. Simply the general resurrection of all the dead as Jesus Christ taught followed by the Great White Throne Judgment and the New Heavens and New Earth. Praise God from whom all blessings flow!
But Lot suffered in the city (if only spiritually/emotionally)
2 Peter 2:7-8 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds)
So tribulation=wrath? What about John 16:33 and the like?
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Believers do today as well. We were told there would be persecution. This is different than the specified day of Gods wrath and judgement known as Jacob's Trouble.
The Great Tribulation = wrath. John was speaking of the persecution in my above reply.
Was the wrath against us placed on Christ or part of it? What purpose is there for the church to go through this time of Jacob's Trouble, particularly gentile believers?
It is the only eschatology that is consistent with the numerous Scriptures that declare that God will conquer the world with the Gospel through his people.
Eschatologies that have just a few Christians at the end of the age and they are failing miserably at their commission to make disciples of the nations and are hanging on by a thread hoping that Jesus comes and rescues them from the wicked world they failed to conquer is not, in my opinion, remotely close to the message of the Bible.
Christ will build his church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
Through that church the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters of the sea.
The Kingdom is like a mustard seed that is the smallest of all at the start but grows to become the largest of herbs in the world.
Jesus is not leaving his Father's side until His Father makes all of Jesus' foes his footstool.
Jacob's trouble is not some future 7 year time of wrath... it was the Babylonian captivity.
Even if the Great Tribulation means God's wrath poured out, that in no way means that the church must be absent during that time. The children of Israel were in Egypt while God brought the plagues yet they were spared in the midst of it. In the same way the people of God will suffer tribulation in this world, including the Great Tribulation, yet be spared God's wrath. What is called the Tribulation when referring to the eschaton is not a period of God indiscriminately pouring out judgment on the world, but a time of persecution against His holy nation, the Church.
Look up "tribulation" in a concordance. Every time (IIRC) it is used, it is referring to the persecution and suffering that believers endure.
Historical premill as well...though I don't see the Bible teaching a 7 year tribulation.
Thus I do believe in a rapture, before the millennium, but without a specific period of tribulation preceeding it.
I just watched a video the other day of a round table discussion regarding eschatology, hosted by John Piper called an Evening of Eschatology. The postmil proponent had some great arguments I must admit.
But how does post-mil deal with passages like:
Luke 18:8 ~ I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
indicating that there will be very little faith on the earth at the second advent.
2 Tim 4:3 ~ For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Which seems to indicate that people will increasingly turn to false teachers the closer we get to "his appearing" (2 Tim 4:1)
I am not postmil but I do reject the doctrine that the Church for whom Jesus Christ died will be a failure and God will have to rescue it out of the world!
I think it is a point in postmil's favor that this passage always comes up. The reason it is in postmil's favor is because it indicates that there are so few passages that seemingly contradict post mil that this one must be referenced each time.
So let me start by saying that even if we had no good interpretation of that single passage that makes it consistent with postmil, that passage alone simply would not be enough to discredit postmil.
If that one passage is all that keeps someone from embracing the optimistic eschatology of postmil then he should leap into postmil with both feet. Why? Because there are so many other passages that teach that God will conquer the earth by conquering the hearts of men with the Gospel of Christ.
But that passage is given in the context of Jesus' discourse about the impending destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in particular.
God "coming" in Scripture often refers to his visiting a people with fierce judgment.
Jesus is saying that it's going to to be tough when he comes to destroy Jerusalem. So he uses a rhetorical question to illustrate it.
Rhetorical questions do not require answers. They illustrate something. And this question illustrates how difficult the time just before and during the destruction of Jerusalem is going to be.
Really, you actually already knew that. I know because I know that you knew it was not literal, because if the answer is supposed to be "no", then there's nobody TO rapture.
It is not literal. It is simply a form of speech to illustrate how tough things are going to be.
This refers to Timothy's own pastorate. The time had ALREADY come in the world when false teachers would infiltrate the church. The first of Paul's epistles, Galatians, written a good while before 2Timothy addressed that.
Paul is simply saying that what was already rampant in the world would soon find it's way into Timothy's own ministry- and all of our ministries for that matter. But this was especially true in Timothy's day.
Interesting. Maybe i'll have to give Post a second look. but those aren't the "only" verses to counter Post-mill eschatology... just the first two that came to mind. I would post more but I'm going on a date with my bride.
Catch you all tomorrow.
(And remember... we show the world that we are His disciples by loving each other. So be loving, even in disagreement.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.)
If the rapture doesn't happen first then please explain why Christ is seen coming in the clouds as the first event in Revelations?.
If God protects all the Christians during the tribulation. Then why are so many martyred? There heads being cut off does not sound like protection to me.
If Christians live through the tribulation, How come there are only two witnesses preaching the gospel
How come the only ones saved out of tribulation are Jews?. 144000 of them.
Where is the Amill Atrib position??? I don't believe in a 7 year Trib at all. So the only "rapture" I hold to is the one where Jesus comes back and gathers the elect.
What he said.
If you are talking about Revelation 1:7 how do you reconcile that "every eye shall see him" with your secret rapture theory?
Why are you building a strawman out of what i said regarding believers being spared God's wrath? I never said believers are or would be spared persecution did I?
How do you reconcile your idea that only the "two witnesses" are preaching the gospel with your statement that there are multitudes getting martyred? Will they be killed because of their silence?
If the 144,000 are really only Jews then why did John get the list of the tribes wrong? Of only 144,000 get saved why does John see a "multitude which noone could number" stand before the throne that specifically came out of "great tribulation" in Rev 7:14?
And the big question: Why are we only talking in questions?
I know i said i was done for the night but i couldn't help myself