Rasha

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Oct 25, 2013.

  1. agedman

    agedman
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    Over the course of the BB's discussions, often it is read that God makes a person with a natural volition in which to self determine their own eternity.

    This thread is definitely NOT to be a Calvin/Arminian debate, but to consider a single verse in which the Scriptures clearly state that God makes all for His own purpose.

    The Hebrew word that is key in this verse is "rasha." It basically means one who is not only bad, but condemned. A word that signifies that a person not only has no redeeming features (bad to the bone), but is "condemned already" as John records in John 3.

    The word not only means what the person does is bad, but that the wicked is from the root of the person. That person does bad because they are bad.

    The Scriptures state:
    "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:3


    Often in this modern times, a person hears it said that we are to "love the sinner but hate the sin" or "everyone has some good in them."

    But this verse would indicate that from God's perspective, such thinking is incorrect - perhaps even deceitful in attempting to soften the evil of wickedness.

    Some people are wicked, not just do wicked.
     
  2. Revmitchell

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    I would say everyone is wicked not just some:

    Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;

    I would also say that all are condemned until they believe in Christ:

    Joh_3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
     
  3. agedman

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    I agree.

    But does not the verse in the OP have a more specific emphasis?

    Doesn't the verse clearly state that the wicked person is made that way for the direct purpose of the Lord?

    Can such a person who is made "wicked for the day of evil" change their own self?
     
  4. Revmitchell

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    If you are suggesting that God makes some who will never be offered grace then no.

    As I laid out we are all "wicked" until we believe in Christ. There is none more wicked than any other. Neither you nor I are less wicked than anyone else. Also God does not make man wicked man has done that to himself.

    But God has made man and they are all wicked until belief in God. Those who reject God will remain wicked and those will justly suffer their fate.

    John Gill put it this way:

    "It is not the sense of this text, nor of any other passage of Scripture, that God made man to damn him; nor is this to be inferred from the doctrine of predestination: God made man, neither to damn him, nor to save him, but for his own glory; and that is secured, whether in his salvation or damnation;"

    And by the way it is verse 4 not verse 3.
     
  5. quantumfaith

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    Correct me if wrong agedman, but it can be interpreted that your meaning here (scripturally) is that some are in fact "created" for the purpose of being wicked? Is that so?
     
  6. agedman

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    I am saying that the OP verse states "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

    Do you see any part of this verse that indicates that God did not create all things for himself, and it not include the wicked with the specific purpose for "the day of evil?"
     
  7. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    One cannot lift a single verse out of the Bible and establish a view of God from it, but that is what you are trying to do. Yes, it would appear to say what you read into it, by itself and standing alone. But the context -- Proverbs 16:1-9 -- speaks of "reward" for making right choices. In fact, the verse you mistakenly cited contradicts your interpretation:

    Proverbs 16, NASB
    3 Commit your works to the LORD
    And your plans will be established.​

    So do the verses below it:

    Proverbs 16
    6 By lovingkindness and truth iniquity is atoned for,
    And by the fear of the LORD one keeps away from evil.
    7 When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD,
    He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.​

    So no, the verse does not prove, even standing alone (since that is an incorrect context) that God has created anyone for destruction.
     
  8. Salty

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    I agree that all are condemened until salvation - but I dont know if I would equate wickendness with un-righteous
     
  9. Revmitchell

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    Unrighteous = no righteous = wicked
     
  10. agedman

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    Your "context" doesn't apply to THIS verse. Each verse of that section is a separate paragraph (thought).

    The verse is NOT applied to the right thinking, or the ways that please the Lord. Again, each has a separate thought and application.

    Matthew Henry has perhaps the best comments on this verse when he states:
    1. That God is the first cause. He is the former of all things and all persons, the fountain of being; he gave every creature the being it has and appointed it its place. Even the wicked are his creatures, though they are rebels; he gave them those powers with which they fight against him, which aggravates their wickedness, that they will not let him that made them rule them, and therefore, though he made them, he will not save them.

    2. That God is the last end. All is of him and from him, and therefore all is to him and for him. He made all according to his will and for his praise; he designed to serve his own purposes by all his creatures, and he will not fail of his designs; all are his servants. The wicked he is not glorified by, but he will be glorified upon. He makes no man wicked, but he made those who he foresaw would be wicked: yet he made them (#Ge 6:6), because he knew how to get himself honour upon them. See #Ro 9:22. Or (as some understand it) he made the wicked to be employed by him as the instruments of his wrath in the day of evil, when he brings judgments on the world. He makes some use even of wicked men, as of other things, to be his sword, his hand (#Ps 17:13-14), flagellum Dei--the scourge of God. The king of Babylon is called his servant.
    The view of Matthew Henry does not discredit the Scriptures which some attempt in placing God as benign or uninvolved in all aspects of all people - even the wicked.
     
  11. agedman

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    My apologies to "thisnumbersdisconected" that I cannot edit the above post to clarify to what I was responding.

    As it reads, it seems that at I was directing the entirety to his comment(s).

    Such was not my intent, and I neglected to include such a distinction in the post.

    Particularly, beginning with, "Matthew Henry has perhaps..." the post was NOT directed at his statement.



    >>>> Perhaps this is the distinction indicator that I should have used <<<<



    The point of this proverb is to show God as creator is not limited, not benign, and certainly not uninvolved with both believer and unbeliever.
    "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

    One cannot escape that this proverb clearly states that God created "even the wicked for the day of evil" for HIS purpose and HIS glory.

    Political implications: Wicked rulers and those who persecute believers?

    Spiritual implications: Wickedness in high places?

    Emotional implications: Wickedness even within the soul of the believer?

    Physical implications: Wickedness manifested physically?

    Social implications: Wickedness manifested in social structures and mores?

    Believers, here is a truth:

    God did not create nor does he create evil, but God will be glorified and purposefully use even Lucifer who was the first to contemplate evil.
     
  12. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Though often true of many of the Proverbs, that isn't true here. The context extends from vv. 1-9, as I stated.

    And while I respect Henry on many of his commentaries, he was very nearly a hyper-Calvinist, and in his assessment, I cannot agree. Just as I can't with you that this one verse "proves" the Calvinist theory. It does not.
     
  13. Revmitchell

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    Who are these people?
     
  14. agedman

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    Never stated this "'proves' the Calvinist Theory."

    However, EVEN IF I were to take your assessment that this verse is part of a larger paragraph (which it isn't), it still does not move the intent nor the actual meaning from what I have stated both in the OP and the previous post.


    John Gill (found here) also agrees.

    I would add that some commentate that the verse also can indicate that God preserves the wicked for the day of evil or day(s) of destruction and the final judgment. (Clark, Pulpit Commentary, ...)

    Note: I disagree with the "free will of man" statements made by the Pulpit commentary. But this thread is NOT about that subject. To read more on my personal view - look in the archives.

    I am not fond of the "pulpit commentary" other than when it agrees with me. :)
     
  15. Revmitchell

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    John Gill on Proverbs 16:4

    "yea, even the wicked for the day of evil; this is added to illustrate the general proposition in the preceding clause, and to obviate an objection, that might be taken from the destruction of the wicked, against all things being for the glory of God; for even the destruction of the wicked, which is under a divine appointment, is for his glory. It is not the sense of this text, nor of any other passage of Scripture, that God made man to damn him; nor is this to be inferred from the doctrine of predestination: God made man, neither to damn him, nor to save him, but for his own glory; and that is secured, whether in his salvation or damnation; nor did or does God make men wicked; he made man upright, and he has made himself wicked; and, being so, God may justly appoint him to damnation for his wickedness, in doing which he glorifies his justice. "The day of evil", or "evil day", is the day of wrath and ruin, unto which wicked men are reserved by the appointment of God, agreeably to the Targum, Septuagint, Syriac, and Arabic versions. This is true of wicked angels, wicked men, and particularly of that wicked one, the man of sin and son of perdition, antichrist; the word here used is in the singular number.
     
  16. Herald

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    agedman, by the way, the correct reference is Proverbs 16:4 not 16:3.

    I am willing to take the Bible at face value when it says that God created the wicked for the day of evil (Proverbs 16:4). The wicked/unrighteous individual plays a part in God's unfolding saga of the redemption of His elect. The wicked/unrighteous are a contrast between God lavishing grace and love on those whom He redeems; and wrath and indignation on those who perish in their sins. In that sense the wicked/unrighteous glorify God, even in their wicked state (Phil. 2:10, 11).
     
  17. agedman

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    Have you not heard such statements as:

    "My God is a God of love and wouldn't allow...."

    or

    "If there was a God, he wouldn't ..."

    or how about the lyrics posted in this popular song below:
    Time after time I was searching for peace in some void
    I was trying to blame all my ills on this world I was in
    Surface relationships used me till I was done in
    But all the while someone was begging to free me from sin

    Chorus
    He was there all the time
    He was there all the time
    Waiting patiently in line
    He was there all the time
    Never again will I search for a fake rainbows end
    Now that I’ve found the answer my life is just starting to rhyme
    Sharing each new day with Him is a breath of fresh life
    Oh what I've missed He's been waiting right here all the time

    Chorus
    He was there all the time
    He was there all the time
    Waiting patiently in line
    He was there all the time
    (copied from: here)

    God doesn't wait "patiently in line" nor does he "beg."

    More to the point, the Scriptures state, "No man seeks God" (Romans 3) and that there is "no fear of God" in the natural state of unbelief which is what the wicked represent.
     
  18. agedman

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    So you agree with me? It seems you do.

    What you posted that Gill stated didn't disagree with anything I have posted.

    And I pointed out what area I have disagreement with the statements of the "Pulpit Commentary" but that commentary did not dispute my statements on this thread.

    My argument (in the OP) has been that wicked people are not just wicked because they do wickedness, but do wicked because they are (from their very core) wicked.

    This verse does not dispute but actually supports that statement.
     
  19. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Saying it yet again doesn't make it so, nor will repeating it another 200 times. This particular segment of the Proverbs is a paragraph, regardless of your denial.

    Actually, yeah it does. As I showed in the previous post, the bulk of which you largely ignored to focus on one small item within it.

    And as Rev pointed out, you have to grossly misinterpret that commentary by Gill, or totally ignore the central part, to leap to such a false conclusion. Gill obviously refutes your point. You're incorrect here, A/M. Sorry.
     
    #19 thisnumbersdisconnected, Oct 26, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2013
  20. Revmitchell

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    Vague and hard to nail down. All your posts have been unclear and allusive.
     

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