RCC Lateran IV command to Exterminate

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Apr 11, 2015.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    The Catholic Church - says that the Canon Law of LATERAN IV 1215 Canon 3 - calling for the "extermination of heretics" and Jews -- is "infallibly" correct to this very day.

    This downward spiral illustrated in 1215 (and kept up in the dark ages) leads to a great many incidents of torture and death including those of the inquisition. 50 million Christians died this way according to some.

    The excuses for Catholic crimes against humanity in those dark ages - fall far short of accounting for the lack of remorse, confession, turning from such practices but rather claiming them to this very day of enlightenment - to be "infallibly correct".

    horrific.

    The so-called "Doctrine of Discovery" did in fact use ISIS-like logic to justify killing the natives of countries that you discover if those natives refused to convert.

    Imagine the horror of finding that some obscure protestant today still considered burning Catholics or witches alive an "infallibly correct thing to do" to "purify society or the church or doctrine" -- only THEN do you even begin to admit to the magnitude of the RCC problem that remains today.

    Wouldn't you agree?
     
  2. One Baptism

    One Baptism
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    420
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is interesting to note brother BobRyan, that as pointed out by yourself (as I am sure others also), the execution, or the "extirpation", of "heretics" (as defined by Roman Catholicism), is still legally binding to this very day, and still very 'necessary', as it is given in the current and most up to date Roman Catholic Canon Law, as well as in various Papal Bulls (as else, encyclicals, speeches, and so on), the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia and Catechism(s) (older or current), the various official Roman Catholic commentators on Canon Law itself, Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologica, and commentaries on Aquinas therein, also Augustine's "two swords" doctrine, as well as completely valid under the Vat. II doctrine and practice, and so on.

    This is all documented in context from those Roman Catholic sources, officially, with links to those Roman Catholic sources, directly from either the Vatican's official website, or those prelatures and or organizations set up to promote it, which have official sanctions, under the watchcare and guidance of their properly constituted authorities (of Romanism, ie, Cardinals, Bishops, etc), having their sanction, approval, blessing including the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur also.

    If any would like me to go into this, I can in quite some detailed detail. It will not be light reading however, as most of it reads in a very particular manner, sometimes after that of Greek philosophized theology, or after that of Romanized Law (which is what Canon Law is based upon, Emperor Justinian, etc), or lawyers and so on (especially when getting into Canon Law).

    So, what would be made known from those sources is that of studied and learned exposition and historical documentation. It can also be tied directly into Prophecy (future history), and also into the history (past, present & future) written in the Scripture.

    PS. The problem therein, is not simply a Roman one, but also of her daughters, and as such, thus it will be an Americanized one also.

    Revelation 6:11 - And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

    Revelation 13:15 - And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

    Revelation 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
     
    #2 One Baptism, Apr 11, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2015
  3. Walter

    Walter
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,285
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hello, Bob: I am listing for your consideration a link to a debate between Dave Armstrong (convert to Catholicism) and James White. It gives both sides of an exchange which after the initial letters are exchanged between the two of them, the issue to which your thread addresses is discussed. These letters are quite lengthy and many points are covered but I'd be interested to what you think about how Mr. Armstrong and Mr. White approach the subject of this thread. I generally consider all sides to an issue before taking my own position. That's why I enjoy this board so much. Many diverse opinions and positions! Let me know what you think of the debate if you have the time to read it.

    http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/02/is-catholicism-christian-my-debate-with.html
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Which part is of interest?

    This?

    I have to admit it is slow reading and not exactly riveting.

    Is there a specific part you find helpful for discussion?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Walter

    Walter
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,285
    Likes Received:
    2
    As far as the link I provided, both White & Armstrong address (White supports your view & Armstrong the Catholic view) the IV Lateran Council and the call to exterminate. But, you find it dry, so nevermind. However, in its primary sense, exterminate means to obliterate completely. It applies to heresy as a vice or error as well as it applies to a group of people. Within the context of the document you referred to, it means to cut off or root out. Pope Leo called for the extermination of the Islamic religion. It's too bad it didn't happen. We are paying the price now and will probably pay for it in a much bigger way in the future. BTW, Bob, if hadn't been for the crusades, you and the rest of us would be speaking Arabic right now and worshiping in secret.
    All the claims of '50 million TRUE Christians murdered' are a farce. I don't think there were that many people in all of Europe, much less all of Spain at that time. Typical anti-Catholic nonsense. I believe the actual numbers executed were 4 to 6,000....too much....but the temporal powers worked against the Church, and one Holy Father had the situation in Spain misrepresented to him by one cleric.

    I'll be off-line for a few days but will try to check in to BB when I return to catch up with the thread.
     
    #5 Walter, Apr 13, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 13, 2015
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    I gave examples from one of the larger sections where the text is almost useless for discussion. Is there some part that you find helpful in that 80 pages of back and forth?


    It is possible that the RCC defense is "we meant exterminate in a nice way not in a bad way" - but the actual facts of history show that it was in fact - in a bad way. The inquisition comes after that.


    And certainly the Protestant governments would say that about the Catholics they were exterminating as well.

    I thought in the modern age we would not long go for that sort of stuff.


    You say that like you did the audit.

    Correction: The dark ages of persecution by the RCC latest for 1260 years -

    All history is "Anti-Catholic" if it is not complimentary to Catholicism.

    We already got that news.

    You are stating "belief"???

    ==============================

    [FONT=&quot]Latin origin for Exterminate:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Originally, to exterminate something was to banish it or drive it away. And it is this meaning that can be found in the Latin origin of "exterminate." "Exterminate" comes from "exterminatus," the past participle of "exterminare," meaning "to drive beyond the boundaries." The Latin word "exterminare" was formed from the prefix "ex-" ("out of" or "outside") and "terminus" ("boundary"). Not much more than a century after its introduction to English, "exterminate" came to denote destroying or utterly putting an end to something. And that's the use with which the word is usually employed today.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]http://www.merriam-webster.com/word-of-the-day/2011/07/26/[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Origin[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]late Middle English (in the sense 'drive out'): from Latin exterminat- 'driven out', from the verb exterminare, from ex- 'out' + terminus 'boundary'. The sense 'destroy' (mid 16th century) comes from the Latin of the Vulgate.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/exterminate[/FONT]







    [FONT=&quot]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45674[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Posted: August 9, 2005
    1:00 a.m. Eastern[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I'm also encouraged by Benedict XVI, who seems to have inherited John Paul II's humility as well as his loyalty to foundational doctrines. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]On Jan. 22, 1998, when he was still a cardinal and the grand Inquisitor (yes!) of the Roman Catholic Church, he declared that their archives (4,500 large volumes) indicate a death toll of 25 million killed by the Catholic Church for being "heretics." And likely two-thirds of the original volumes are lost. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]That kind of honesty will help relations (though there is no basis for uniting the RCC with Bible-believing Protestant churches).
    [/FONT]




    [FONT=&quot]=================================[/FONT]




    [FONT=&quot]Catholic Digest 11/1997 pg 100[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]The answer from Fr. Ken Ryan:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]==============================================[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]In the article above – Fr. Ken Ryan makes the meaning of “extermination” of that group and “many other groups” clear for modern readers.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Catholic apologists like Catholic Digest’s Fr. Ken Ryan quoted above often argue that the RCC isn't accountable for the Inquisition, since the state carried out the torturing and the executions. It was the RCC who defined these people as "heretics", however, and the RCC handed them over to the state (John 19:11). [/FONT]
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    [FONT=&quot]The Fourth Lateran Council[/FONT][FONT=&quot], the council that dogmatized transubstantiation, offered indulgences to those who would "exterminate heretics" and participate in a Crusade. Since this council refers to the RCC's influence over the state (John 19:11), it points to the fact that the state was acting at the command of the RCC. The council declared (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/lat4-c3.html):

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure[/FONT][FONT=&quot], that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope[/FONT][FONT=&quot]], that he may [/FONT][FONT=&quot]declare the ruler's vassals absolved[/FONT][FONT=&quot] from their allegiance[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics[/FONT][FONT=&quot] may possess it[/FONT][FONT=&quot] without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long [/FONT][FONT=&quot]as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The same law is to be observed[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in regard to those
    who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]cross for the extermination of the heretics[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT][FONT=&quot] shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges[/FONT][FONT=&quot] granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]



    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]This then is the "infallible" position of the RCC not only demanding the extermination of dissenters but also describing the methods to force the civil authorities to comply with the RCC command.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Pretty hard to miss that point. Makes it very difficult to pin this on the civil authorities that are themselves being threatened by this decree if they fail to comply with it.[/FONT]
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    [FONT=&quot]Pope Gregory IX, Council Tolosanum, 1229 A.D.:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]"We prohibit laymen possessing copies of the Old and New Testament ... [/FONT][FONT=&quot]We forbid them most severely to have the above books in the popular vernacular." "'The lords of the districts shall carefully seek out the heretics in dwellings, hovels, and forests, and even their underground retreats shall be entirely wiped out." [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]reigned from 16 June 1846 to his death in 1878. He was the longest-reigning elected pope in the history of the Catholic Church — over 31 years.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Pope Pius IX, ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1846 - 1878.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) Quanta Cura:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Socialism, Communism, clandestine societies, Bible societies... pests of this sort must be destroyed by all means[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]================================================================

    The Catholic church on anti-Semitism, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Will Durant[/FONT][FONT=&quot] writes in The Story of Civilization:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]The Council of Vienna (1311) forbade all association between Christians and Jews. The Council of Zamora (1313) ruled that they must be kept in strict subjection and servitude. The Council of Basel (1431-33) renewed canonical decrees forbidding Christians to associate with Jews...and instructed secular authorities to confine the Jews in separate quarters, compel them to wear a distinguishing badge, and ensure their attendance at sermons aimed to convert them.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]In 1243 the entire Jewish population of Belitz, near Berlin, was burned alive on the charge that some of them had [/FONT][FONT=&quot]defiled a consecrated Host[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [...] In 1298 every Jew in Rottingen was burned to death on the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]charge of desecrating a sacramental wafer[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Rindfleisch, a pious baron, organized and armed a band of Christians sworn to kill all Jews; they completely exterminated the Jewish community at Wurtzburg, and slew 698 Jews in Nuremberg.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]"the ecclesiastical Council of Zamora (1313) decreed the imposition of the badge, the segregation of the Jewish from the Christian population, and a ban against the employment of Jewish physicians by Christians, or of Chrsitian servants by Jews[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]The Story of Civilization: Part IV [/FONT][FONT=&quot]"The Age of Faith" by Will Durant. Simon and Schuster, New York, 1950.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Pope Eugenius IV (1431-47)...added that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Jews should be ineligible for any public office, could not inherit property from Christians, must build no more synagogues, and must stay in their homes, behind closed doors and windows, in Passion Week[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (a wise provision against Catholic violence)....[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]In a later bull Eugenius ordered that any Italian Jew found reading Talmudic literature should suffer confiscation of his property. Pope Nicholas V commissioned St. John of Capistrano (1447) to see to it that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]every clause of this repressive legislation should be enforced, and authorized him to seize the property of any Jewish physician who treated a Christian.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]As one of many examples of the decrees issued by Popes in support of persecuting and murdering non-Catholics, a 1487 bull of Pope Innocent VIII commanded that people [/FONT][FONT=&quot]"rise up in arms against" the Waldensians and "tread them under foot".[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Catholic historian Peter de Rosa writes in Vicars of Christ (Crown Publishers, 1988), [/FONT][FONT=&quot]"Of eighty popes in a line from the thirteenth century on not one of them disapproved of the theology and apparatus of the Inquisition. On the contrary, one after another added his own cruel touches to the workings of this deadly machine[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    [FONT=&quot]The Catholic historian von Dollinger writes in The Pope and the Council, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]


    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]=============================================================================[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]High level catholic sources quoted in the public press -[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Debunking the claim that civil authorities being to blame and not RCC's iron fist.
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]=========================================================[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Thomas Bokenkotter is a Catholic and a historian of the Catholic church. His book "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" reveals some non-flattering details of history for which many Catholics choose to attack their own historian for daring to admit to certain details of history.

    In his own preface he says that if he is guilty of anything - it is in not admitting to enough non-flattering details to fit the actual history of the church.

    "In spite of all my efforts I realize the book has its share of shortcomings and omissions which are perhaps inevitable in a book of this scope. Some critics, for instance, have noted, with a certain amount of justice perhaps, a tendency to glide over the negative and dark aspects of the Church's history... I can only say that after writing this book I am more aware than ever of how difficult it is to produce a balanced account of the complex concatenation of events, ideas, and personalities that constitute historical reality" ibid. p.IX[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]In Bokenkotter's book "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" we find this candid remark concerning the inquisition in the "Historical Catholic Church" - p117[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]How popular did this free-handed style of torture become among the spiritually elite?[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
     

Share This Page

Loading...