RCC Priest says Jesus may have been married

Ron, rest assured, he would be out on his ear by any church I would associate with. I would demand a confrontation, biblically, to get him to repent, and then, given the progressive discipline outlined in scripture, the steps would be taken to make sure he wouldn't darken the pulpit anymore.

 

Well, Curtis, why don't you do something about it then?

Find out what convention he is affiliated with and tell them that he should be defrocked.

Why did you make demands of me personally to know what would be done about a Catholic priest but now when it is a Baptist pastor, you qualify it with "any church that I would associate with"?

I don't actually expect you to do anything, Curtis. Just pointing out the difference in your expectations when it comes to Catholic vs. Baptist and me vs. yourself.

 

Well like I said, you guys claim to be perfect, and I don't know of any Baptist church, or affiliation of churches who make this claim. You say that you church is protected from even the possibility of error, we don't.

How about we pray for this man, and his church ?

 

I might add that Baptist churches are really independent of each other. Each congregation control their own affairs.

 

Sorry for not being accurate in what I said. What I meant was that everyone on the list is a heretic who is an active member of the Catholic church.

I'm dumbfounded by your attitude toward the acceptance of these people within your church. The only reason why such people are not excommunicated is because the people in authority choose not to excommunicate them. The problem lies with the leadership of your church, not the heretics who are allowed to be fellow members of it.

 

Actually, Fr. McBrien is on the list, so that's not a problem.

But, of course, the list isn't comprehensive. It's just one person's (or small group's) list, it's not the "Official Heretic Directory" or anything. I see folks on the list who I know have been disciplined by the Church in one way or another, or been shown the door altogether; I also see folks I've never heard of. And I see some (e.g. Rev Vosko, the "design consultant" for church renovations) whose crimes are against good taste rather than doctrine.

So it's a mixed bag.

Mark

 

Who are the ones that were excommunicated?

I didn't think the RCC did that anymore.

 

Eladar,

Unfortunately, I don't carry a comprehensive list of such things around in my head. (I'm lucky if I can remember what to pick up at the grocery store!)

A few that I do know the status of offhand:

Marcel Lefebvre -- was excommunicated, died in 1991

Sheila Rauch Kennedy -- is an Episcopalian, and I believe always has been. (She was formerly married to a Catholic).

Romulo Braschi -- was excommunicated (not sure when), and is a member of some schismatic group.

Matthew Fox -- is now an Episcopalian. My (unofficial) impression is that he wasn't excommunicated, but was ... um ... nudged strongly toward leaving on his own (by the Dominican Order that he formerly belonged to, if memory serves)

Frances Kissling -- the U.S. bishops have declared that her organization, CFFC, "is not a Catholic organization, does not speak for the Catholic Church, and in fact promotes positions contrary to the teaching of the Church." I don't know if she's been excommunicated personally, but members of her group have been in at least one diocese.

Phil Berrigan, Raymond Lucker, Karl Rahner, and probably some others on the list are dead.

Others (e.g., Curran, Gramick, Nugent, Kung, etc.) have been disciplined in other ways -- e.g., removed from their ministries, lost teaching credentials, etc.

Don't have any specifics on the others at the moment.

Mark

 

Actually in some cases your actions automatically exommunicate yourself.

Also there were some priests and women formally excommunicated last year in Europe....the priests decided they would 'make' the women priests, in direct disobedience to the Church.

Of course, upon death excommunication is automatically lifted, obviously.


LaRae

 

You did not understand what I said.

I in no way said or implied that I accepted any of the people on the list.

I was commenting on your insistence that it was a complete list.

 

You may not accept these people, but your religion does. This is at least the second time I've made this point. I think that is enough.

LaRae,

I thought excommunication meant that a person could not go to heaven. Therefore the excommunication would follow someone into death as a 'death sentence'.


Mark,

Thanks for the info. I found it interesting. As I said earlier, I didn't think the RCC still did excommunicated people.

 

I thought excommunication meant that a person could not go to heaven. Therefore the excommunication would follow someone into death as a 'death sentence'.


[/QUOTE]

No no no.....the Church doesn't have the power to send anyone to hell.

At the time of death we are judged. God dispenses mercy/justice.

The whole point of formal excommunication is to notify the sinner they are straying off the path and in danger....it is an attempt to bring them back to the fold. Perhaps their sin is endangering their salvation.

And again, the Church doesn't always need to issue a formal excommunication....one's actions can automatically excommunicate one from the Church (ie involvement in abortions etc).


LaRae

 

Perhaps the RCC doesn't believe this today, but at one time it did.

If last rites do not affect salvation, why do it?

If a person can be saved through God's grace which is delivered through the sacraments, how can anyone be saved outside the sacraments?

Am I incorrect in my understanding that at one time the RCC believed that there was no salvation for those who had been excommunicated?

 

Hi Thess above are verses from Matthew 18 and Hebrews 17. Church here is the true meaning of the Greek word which is, assembly. Elders are established in local assemblies for leadership and we should pray for them and be under their leadership. It is that easy. My church (“assembly” in Racine, WI) has a head pastor, youth pastor, part-time asst. pastor and a board made up of elders and deacons. They are my leaders and they make some decisions without my vote and I must go along with them as my leaders. "In Matthew the church is the local assembly that the people in question attended. Remember, there were few assemblies to choose from and no denominations at that time. In fact, there was probably one “assembly” per town/city. In context there is no support for a church authority in a universal sense from these verses. Remember these verses are meant for all believers to read. We can discuss what binding and loosening means but that would be off topic Hope I answered what you wanted me to."

Thanks for you infallible opinion Brian. I don't happen to see the words "local assembly of people" in either of those verses. Perhaps you could point it out. Assembly is a part of the meaning of Church but not all. Also two verses don't make up a complete definition of Church. Did Peter have his own little assembly in Matt 16. If Matt 18 is for the local assembly then why do we have local ASSEMBLIES. How come we have in one place in Brazile 3 Pentecostal assmeblies on the same block. The Protestant invisible Church model simply does not fit how Matt 18 is supposed to work. Brian, you have had all this bull pumped in to your head. it is a false tradition that you believe that has nullified the word of God. It is a lie. I don't know how to put it nicely. You are decieved.

 

Brian,

Would the same concept have been baffling in, say, 1800, for the same reasons?

Mark

 

Brother Brian,

How can you claim that universal authority cannot take place when we have evidence of empire after empire after empire, many of which lasted, at least, a few hundred years (Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian, Hittite, Egyptian, Assyrian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Mongol, Muslim). It just seems a bit silly to say that without modern communication, there cannot be universal authority.