RCC speaks out about Extermination

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by BobRyan, Sep 13, 2003.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    The Roman Catholic churche's practice of extermination in the dark ages has been the topic of books such as "Foxes Book of Martyrs" but the Catholic response is either denial or demonizing the victims of the Catholic Church's dark ages.

    Nothing "new" there.

    Isn't it time we heard from some Catholic sources that were/are of sufficient courage and credibility to admit to the history that everyone knows about?

    Well as learned on the other thread about the RCC in the dark ages - there are some good RC sources speaking out on this in a credible manner that matches with known history.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Catholic apologists often argue that the RCC isn't accountable for the Inquisition, since the state carried out the torturing and the executions. It was the RCC who defined these people as "heretics", however, and the RCC handed them over to the state (John 19:11).

    We know from the decrees of Popes and councils that the RCC viewed itself as having authority over the state.

    For example, the Fourth Lateran Council, the ecumenical council that dogmatized transubstantiation, declared the follwoing;

    (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/lat4-c3.html):
    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

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    With such well documented examles of the RC policy of "extermination" in its "dark ages" how can "informed Catholics" continue to pursue a practice of "denial and equivocaition" as "if" there ever existed an equivalent Christian denomination holding such absolute control over all of Europe for centuries - that also pursued such an explicit and blatant policy of "extermination".

    The "answer" seems to be that there are credible Catholics who maintain integrity by admitting to the obvious history of the past and deal with the issue head-on instaed of dodging it. (Or at least we find evidence that there are).

    Consider the following news stories from Vatican City.

    Notice "no equivocation".

    Notice - refernce to the policy of torture and extermination listed previously.

    How refreshing that there are some Catholics willing to place the atrocities in a more "Christian light" rather than tyring to defend or minimalize monsterous acts of atrocity - or worse - continuing to demonize the victims in "true dark ages" spirit.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. tragic_pizza

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    Using your standards, I think we should hold the Southern Baptist Convention responsible for slavery, Jim Crowe, and violence committed against Civil Rights activists in the 1960's.
     
  5. A_Christian

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    I'm not sure that slavery is a Christian issue.
    The institution of slavery is as old a war. With
    that said, I do believe that it was through
    prodding of a Christian influenced world
    conscience,that men saw slavery for what it was.
    However, it is the chains we do not see which are
    the most dangerous... Those bound by such may
    not see their predicament. [​IMG]
     
  6. CatholicConvert

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    Having fun, Bob?

    :rolleyes:
     
  7. MikeS

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    Bob's not out for fun. Bob is out to get "answers" regarding "extermination" of "heretics" in the "dark ages" from "informed Catholics" with "sufficient courage and credibility" to act in a "Christian light" and to "demand an accounting" from those who continue to "evade and deny, defend or minimalize."

    Gee, don't "tell" anybody, but that "was" kind of "fun!" :D
     
  8. Kathryn

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    I am glad the Catholic Church publicly acknowledges and asks God’s and each other's forgiveness for the sins of her popes and bishops and priests and all her who call themselves Catholic. And any people unjustly persecuted by the Church should be apologized for. The Church will however not apologize for the “history” of the Trail of Blood or the “history” as presented by The Great Controversy because they are not historically accurate.

    Besides slavery, and persecution of other people, religions, and denominations, I am wondering if other churches will likewise publicly ask forgiveness for the sins of the leadership of their Church who where false prophets.

    How many people lost their faith in Jesus Christ because of the false prophecies of the end of the world coming on a certain date? How many people (John Paul II as one example) have been falsely accused of being anti-Christs who were not anti-Christs?

    One false prophecy after another, with no acknowledgement of the sin involved of bearing false witness or leading people astray in their faith in Jesus Christ.

    I am surprised when Christians dismiss prophecies that don’t come true as just a mistakes, when Holy Scripture has so much to say about false prophets.

    Kathryn
     
  9. thessalonian

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    Not to mention the Calvanist burning of 100,000 "witches" (does bob believe in witches) and Servetus and the masacre by the Protestant governments of 100,000 peasants (I learned this from a deal on Luther on Channel 2) brought about by Luther's angry words or the anarchy that followed his beloved reformation. Or perhaps the imprisionment of Catholic clergy in England where the King James Bible comes from didn't really happen. Ya right. Do you suppose England had a policy of extermination (and in this case extermination meant what it does today). But nobody speaks about these things. Oh, I know, "but the Cathoilc leadership was involved". Well Luther and Calvin weren't exactly nobody's. Oh well.

    Blessings
     
  10. Justified Saint

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    The oft-mentioned Peasants' War is a scandal to the name of Luther and the cause of the reformation. The peasants of Germany used Luther's writings to rebel against the nobles and then Luther condemned the uprising and encouraged all the nobles to slaughter the rebels telling them to "stike, strangle, stab secretly or publicly, and remember there is nothing more venomous than a rebel". As the peasants stood there on the battlefield calling on God for divine intervention they were massacred by the thousands and within a year and 100,000 dead bodies later the bloodshed stopped.

    Yet, nobody has to "apologize" or take the blame for the crimes of the reformers because with 33,000 denominations, do you honestly think anyone of those is going to step up and say sorry? Sooner or later the Protestants will be on John Paul's case to take the blame for the reformers. ;)
     
  11. BobRyan

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    How could I not?

    I have RC sources SHOWING that the torture and murder of Christians in the dark ages was "ecclesiastical" and was authorized by the Catholic Church itself for centuries AND also stating that it was specifically targetting Protestant Christians at the height of its power to torture and slaughter.

    There is no "equivalent" in the history of Euorope though some have "tried" to equal this power during the dark ages - none has.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

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    In your efforts to misdirect - you miss the point. Luther never claimed power over Nobles. There was no "army of Luther". There were no Lutheran "inquisitors" nor even Lutheran "tribunals" nor "secret files" of the Lutherans that are now being opened to discover the full perfidity of the Lutheran states for centuries in the dark ages - as we have for the RCC.

    AND the Lutheran church is "free" to apologize for any offically sanctioned/institutionalized crimes of the past. Such an apology would only enhance their standing as a Christian organization. We might "condemn" them if they held all this in "secret files" or "forbidden documents" or if they burned the Bible or forbade the common man to read it in his own language - but none of this was done.

    So they are free to apologize for any "institutionalized" misconduct. But during the life of Luther - we have the HIGHT of Catholic power in Europe. "Claiming" that Luther had more power than the Catholic Church and its inquisition - is "revisionist history at its best".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

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    Do you suppose England had a policy of extermination (and in this case extermination meant what it does today). But nobody speaks about these things. Oh, I know, "but the Cathoilc leadership was involved". Well Luther and Calvin weren't exactly nobody's. Oh well.


    There were no "papal warships" built by Luther or Calvin. There were no Calvin-armies or Lutheran-Armies claiming or Calvin as their supreme Pontiff as is the case for the Catholic armies. Papal armies often called to do battle not only with protestants but during Luther's lifetime to do battal also against opposing Papal armies and Papal states.

    AS the Vatican City articles show - there is just no opportunity here to "equivocate" as you seem so anxious to attempt to do.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

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    With such well documented examples of the Catholic policy of "extermination" in its "dark ages" how can "informed Catholics" continue to pursue a practice of "denial and equivocation" as "if" there ever existed an equivalent Christian denomination holding such absolute control over all of Europe for centuries - that also pursued such an explicit and blatant policy of "extermination".

    The "answer" seems to be that there are credible Catholics who maintain integrity by admitting to the obvious history of the past and deal with the issue head-on instead of dodging it.

    Consider the following news stories from Vatican City.

    How refreshing that there are some Catholics willing to place the atrocities in a more "Christian light" rather than trying to defend or minimalize monstrous acts of atrocity - or worse - continuing to demonize the victims in "true dark ages" spirit.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    While we continue to "wait" for the RC detailed, cogent, thoughtful reply to the historic documents AND the comments from the Pope and the Cardinal listed above -- anybody have clues about the 'secret documents' they mention as having information on the toture and crimes of the inquisition?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. mioque

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    Bob
    I distinctly recall the pope taking a whole year to apologize for all that.
    So I'd say the Catholic Church has aknowledged the past.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Mioque - details - please focus on the details.

    As EWTN's Dr. Carroll points out - the Pope did NOT actually admit to ANY specific act of history being an actual "mistake" made by the Catholic Church. Urban "myth" is that the apology did that - and it "lives" simply because of the fan fare surrounding the introduction to the encyclical - not due to the actual content of it.


    Also - note IF the apology had ADMITTED to something our RC bretheren on this board would not be so feverishly telling us about how the inquisition AND extermination were "a good thing".

    The "problem" with the RCC is that it is stuck in a doctrinal model that will not "allow" it to apologize for official Papal commands given to the church in the dark ages.

    Hence - the "problem" remains.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    ``The church is not afraid to submit its past to the judgment of history,'' said Etchegaray, a Frenchman who leads the Vatican's Commission on the Grand Jubilee.


    Attempts to do "just that" in quoting Catholic sources AND reports of Catholic councils and research - are greeted with obfuscation, misdirection and blind denial as well as defense of extermination and torture - by our RC bretheren as SEEN in the posts here.

    Can anyone doubt the reluctance of the RC members to REALLY stand the test of an objective - full disclosure into history - into the "SECRET ARCHIVES the church opened for its 50 scholars" researching this subject?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. Justified Saint

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    You're right Bob, Luther wasn't exactly the Zwingli with sword and banner in hand at the head of an army shouting for blood. Or a Calvin acting as a dictator and excecutioner of some mock utopia. He didn't orchestrate the English Inquisition or the witchtrials. That Luther, what a swell guy. I guess manipulating his will through the nobles and harmless peaseants standing in the middle of fields praying while they are being massacred is ok in protestant circles. Or raving about conversations with the devil, exhorting all Christians to commit rape and murder, and of course bashing Jews. But what reformer is there to look to for inspiration anyways? Calvin? Zwingli? Henry VIII? Yes, it is all very tragic.

    It becomes difficult to take anything you say seriously especially when you base all historical truths on the associated press or CBS news.
     
  20. BobRyan

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    Tha catholic practice of "equivocating" on this thread sometimes takes the form of charging that while the monk and Catholic Theologian Martin Luther was being hunted down in Germany by the Catholic church - he held as much power in the Dark Ages as the Catholic Church and its inquisition.

    Other authorotative historic Catholic sources show (by contrast) that the RCC held such power as to be able to depose any ruler - for failure to exterminate those of its choosing.

    But once said offenders where exterminated - the faithful RC members were free to possess their now vacant lands/property.


     

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