RCC Teachings on Salvation

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by NewReformation, Jul 3, 2003.

  1. NewReformation

    NewReformation
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    More specificly, from the Catechism:
    816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267


    The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268

    Wounds to unity

    817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:


    Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

    818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

    819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

    Toward unity

    820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.


    Catholics DO NOT believe all Christians are members of Christ's Church, nor does the Church teach this. Protestestants and others "belong" to it in only one remote sense, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) explains.



    QUOTE CCC 830 The word "catholic" means "universal," in the sense of "according to the totality" or "in keeping with the whole." The Church is catholic in a double sense:


    WHO BELONGS TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH? (P. 222)

    CCC 836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God... And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in
    Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."

    CCC 837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ ACCEPT ALL THE MEANS OF SALVATION GIVEN TO THE CHURCH together with her entire organization, and who -- by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion -- ARE JOINED IN THE VISIBLE STRUCTURE OF THE CHURCH OF CHRIST, WHO RULES HER THROUGH THE SUPREME PONTIFF AND THE BISHOPS... (emphasis added).

    CCC 838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter. But those who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." END QUOTE (The CCC is quoting Vatican II.)

    It is one thing to be in "a certain, although imperfect communion with the CC" and quite another to "belong" to it.

    Maybe this will clear things up a tad bit for the other Non-Catholics on this forum.

    NewReformation(still an Anabaptist)
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    The above rationalization is an attempt to "put a nice face" on what the RCC has actually said on this subject.

    The "problem" is that the RCC "claims" to be infallable and as it turns out - it did not "just start to speak" after Vatican II.

    Pope Boniface VIII taught in his Unam Sanctam decree (emphasis mine):

    The Council of Florence taught:

    The First Vatican Council taught:

    [quote
    Hence we teach and declare that by the appointment of our Lord the Roman Church possesses a superiority of ordinary power over all other churches, and that this power of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, which is truly episcopal, is immediate; to which all, of whatever right and dignity, both pastors and faithful, both individually and collectively, are bound, by their duty of hierarchial subordination and true obedience, to submit not only in
    matters which belong to faith and morals, but also in those which appertain to the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world,
    so that the Church of Christ may be one flock under one supreme pastor through the preservation of unity both of communion and of profession of the same faith with the Roman Pontiff. This is the teaching of Catholic truth, from which no one can deviate without loss of faith and salvation.
    [/quote]


    Now truly - from NewReformation's posts above WOULD you have "expected" THIS to be the infallible position of the RCC toward Non-RCs?

    I think "not".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    And WOULD we have concluded such "burning" from NewReformation's opending post?

    I think not!

    As EWTN's DR Carroll admits "Billy Graham WOULD have been burned at the stake HAD he taught THEN what he teaches today". :eek: :eek:

    Fascinating!!

    They would have BURNED him alive - in their efforts to "save his soul" as they pronounced the curses upon his roasting form. :eek: :rolleyes:

    And that NewReformation can find a "way" to put a "nice face on it" - is comforting to say the least! :rolleyes:
     
  4. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
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    However we do know that there are humans in the Catholic Church. Actually, they're all human. Actually, they are all human AND fallible. Even the pope. He goes to confession daily.

    Catholics have done some stupid things in their day. Really stupid. But so have Baptists.

    When something isn't a teaching in its official capacity, then we can't hold them to it. Just as we ask them not to hold us to the actions of the ijiots that decide to lace their communion grape juice with some really nasty stuff and kill everyone.

    When speaking in their official capacity, we must then strive to understand what it is the words mean in the correct context. If then, they are anti-biblical, let us hold them to that, and declare that there church is not infallible and is just like all of our churches- they can teach error.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Statements I quoted above from Popes and councils ARE the "official" statements of the RCC and it is THESE statements that "challenge" the modern RC spokesmen for they must state their new views of tolerance in such as way as not to step on the toes of these prior statements regarding non-Catholics.

    After all - if Popes and councils are NOT speaking "for the church" in their publications - then HOW would the church member ever know (until centuries after hid death) whether what he was hearing was "official or not".

    The myth that the pope or the papal councils say "And now we speak ex cathedra" prior to such a statement of "official speaking" -- has never been true at the time any statement was made.

    So it is the composit teaching that the church as to "deal with" when it says "it NEVER" went into error. A huge challenge to say the least.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Daveth

    Daveth
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    [​IMG] Hi Bob,
    I did a Google search on "EWTN's DR Carroll" and found "The Benefits of Burning Heretics at the Stake." how can people still believe like this?

    I also did a Google search on “Dave Armstrong”. I can’t believe Dave said that “The Inquisition was not murder at all, but rather, an application of civil justice."

    To be fair to Dave, he was not for killing of heretics, however he thought, it was the best time to live as a catholic and he would love to go back and live in those times, as he affirmed in another series of exchanges.


    Also, to be fair to Catholics, other churches had these laws. (Anglican, Lutheran and Presbyterian). That’s why I believe in separation of Church and State!

    I find it’s very disturbing today that some neo-catholic and others, believe that the “Inquisition was good” and it is okay to hide ones intentions today. This is a new trend I see on Christian message boards all over the net, is to hide ones intentions under a false profile.

    I believe that's why having an honest Christian message board is helpful, because Jesus is in the midst of where "two or three are gathered together in His name." [​IMG]

    [ July 04, 2003, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Daveth ]
     
  7. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
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    Hi Daveth,

    You wrote, "because Jesus is in the midst of where 'two or three are gathered together in His name'"

    I don't meant to harp on you or criticize you, but I would like to point out the immediate context of the above allusion you made to Matthew's Gospel. You may find what I have to say worthwhile.

    If you take this verse about "2 or 3" in its immediate context, you may discover something quite interesting that I had never noticed before I did a little Bible study on the Gospel of Matthew.

    This statement is in the immediate context of Jesus giving his Apostles binding, decision-making authority.

    "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (in Matthew 18:17-20)

    It was a part of Jewish law that in order to deliver a judgement against someone who had committed a crime, 2 or 3 witnesses were necessary to bring about the conviction and deliver the sentence against the criminal.

    "On the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses he that is to die shall be put to death; a person shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness" (Dt. 17:6).

    In effect, Jesus' statement pertains to his presence in the midst of the Church's legislative authority, confirming the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses:

    "But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses." (Mt 20:16)

    If one is going to treat another Christian "as a Gentile or a tax-collector", that's a pretty hefty action! That's excommunication! And, excommunication isn't really excommunication unless if such a decision has Christ confirming the excommunication as the invisible authority empowering the visible authority.
     
  8. Daveth

    Daveth
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    [​IMG] Hi Carson, nice to meet you. Thank you for your reply.

    I think it's real important for people to be honest on Christian message boards to the best of their ability, and that the Lord keep an eye on ever thing we do. We should post without pretence.

    I will consider what you have said.
    Thanks
    Dave.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    Davethh - all good points. I enjoyed your post.

    As you point out - the idea of Christian torturing other Christians because "they believe different than me" is a horrible legacy of the RCC and some of the Christian churches that split off from the RCC in the late 16th - 18th centuries held on to some of those RC practices for a very short time. However the RC employmnet of them for centuries as the dominant force in Europe - was devastating.

    In any case - the point remains - separation of church and state - in so far as it prevents the church from persecuting those who do not "share her faith" is always a "good thing".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Daveth

    Daveth
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    [​IMG] Hi Bob, nice to meet you also. Thanks for your reply.

    Yes, I believe in separation of church and state deeply.
    That’s why, Luke 6:45 so important.

    Thanks
    Dave
     

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