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RE: Can a man sin a sin unto death after being born again#2

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Brother Bob, Jul 23, 2007.

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  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Originally Posted by Brother Bob
    1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

    1. Let's not put John against himself.

    a. John says that "if we claim to have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1:8). We will sin as born again Children of God.

    b. Then he comes back and say, "I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense" (2:1). Sin is part of the life of the born again.

    c. Further we read, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seen remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God" (3:9).

    2. This is the best translation of this text. I have noticed that when one appeals to the Greek, some have an aversion to it. I wonder why?

    a. We need to learn to respect how the language works. Others have successfully commented on this verse. But I will add this for our consideration:

    i. Paul says, "Pray without ceasing," translated from two Greek words (BTW, this is the shortesst verse in the GNT, not John 11:35,:praying: ).

    ii. "Pray" is present tense, but what does it mean here? Is Paul saying to praying every sec. min. hour, 24/7 for the rest of your saved life? No, he is using what greek grammarians call the "Iterative Present," praying repeatedly, praying faithfully.

    iii. We need to respect how the language work and not dismiss it because it goes against some position we cling to.

    3. If you respect how the Greek language works, you will realize that the Present tenses of 1John 3:8; 5:18 are Customary Present, born again children of God do not make it a custom/habit to lead a life of sin.
     
    #1 Brother Bob, Jul 23, 2007
  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Then why dismiss all of the below except one. It is 10 to 1 against your translation, why not accept the majority veiw?
    NASB:
    No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    (NASB ©1995)
    GWT:
    Those who have been born from God don't live sinful lives. What God has said lives in them, and they can't live sinful lives. They have been born from God.(GOD'S WORD®)

    KJV:
    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    ASV:
    Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.

    BBE:
    Anyone who is a child of God does no sin, because he still has God's seed in him; he is not able to be a sinner, because God is his Father.

    DBY:
    Whoever has been begotten of God does not practise sin, because his seed abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God.

    ERV:
    Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.

    WEY:
    No one who is a child of God is habitually guilty of sin. A God-given germ of life remains in him, and he cannot habitually sin--because he is a child of God.

    WBS:
    Whoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    WEB:

    Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God.

    YLT:
    every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten.


    Of All the translations we have listed, only one said habitual sin. The other 10 translations say they "cannot sin".

    Hardly seems I am afraid of receiving the Greek for the actual scripture.

    Greek is a strange language, there are different choices of words it gives you for the definition of a Greek word. That is why it is very hard to find fault with the King James Version for it seems to be the closest to me.

    Sorry TC; I couldn't let it go.
    The other 10 or 11 translations say they "cannot sin".

    John does not pit himself against himself. You have to realize there is an inward man and there is an outward man, then you can understand what John is saying. IMO

    This is exactly why I am leary when someone runs to the Greek.
     
    #2 Brother Bob, Jul 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2007
  3. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Hence my question, "Isn't there a difference between a person who steals something and a thief?" Answer: yes.
     
    #3 npetreley, Jul 23, 2007
  4. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I think it says, "thou shalt not steal". :) I see what you are saying about the theif being a habitual stealer, but yet ever time he does it, he again breaks the commandment, even so the perons who stole, also broke the commandment. agree?

    The count is 10 for "sin not" and 1 for "habitual sin". Seem the message should be "sin not" for all of us. IMO

    I say, if you are not the real stuff, it will come out on you.
     
    #4 Brother Bob, Jul 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2007
  5. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Absolutely, I agree.

    The question is whether or not the Bible says a Christian will never steal, or will not be a thief.
     
    #5 npetreley, Jul 23, 2007
  6. charles_creech78

    charles_creech78 New Member

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    DHK, GREEK, HANK D So a BORN AGAIN Christain can do all of them things that are writen in Galatians 5:19-21 . Please answer with a Yes or no.
     
    #6 charles_creech78, Jul 23, 2007
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  7. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I only have the word to go by.
    9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

    I try to live by it and teach others to do so. I know this, I feel much better teaching a message to abstain from sin, than I would to just don't be a habitual sinner.

    I wonder how many times would be considered habitual, and if one time is not bad enough, then why would 3 or 4 be? What do you think Npet.? Do you think I am wrong to teach people not to sin and hell is enlarging her borders because so many people are sinning.

    Am I wrong to want all men to go to heaven, even though I know they won't, but at least I have to try. Does that make me a bad preacher?
     
    #7 Brother Bob, Jul 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2007
  8. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. I am afraid that we both will have to part ways here when it comes to what the biblical languages actually say and not how one's favored translation reads.

    2. Whether it is the KJV or the NASB, translator work from the original languages, Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek. Ask yourself why we have been so blessed to have skilled translators, who were not afraid of working directly with the language.

    3. Whenever I approach a text to preach from, I always want to know what the original says, because I am aware that an English translation does not capture everything. Nuances are lost in a receptor language.

    4. I am more leery about that person who avoids discussing what the original languages actually say.
     
    #8 TCGreek, Jul 23, 2007
  9. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. Even Paul made a point on how language should be interpreted: "Now to Abraham and to his seed the promises were spoken, It does not say, "And to seeds as to many, but as to one, And to your Seed, who is Christ" (Gal.3:16).

    2. The Personhood of Christ at The Council of Nicaea (325) was settled by one letter in a Greek word, disproving Arianism, which is now embodied in the Jehovah's Witnesses view of Christ.

    3. I say to you brothers, Please, do not ignore the biblical languages. Heresies are developed because of that.
     
    #9 TCGreek, Jul 23, 2007
  10. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Well, we are on another thread, but I now have some questions for all of you. How many of these Biblical individuals were saved or not saved individuals, in your opinion? And all who have posted in the thread Part One, should remember that they already have an opinion in print, BTW. :)

    So we shall start.

    David?
    Jonah?
    Noah?
    Jacob?
    Rahab?
    Solomon?
    Peter?
    Samson?
    Thomas?
    Gideon?
    Moses?
    Barnabas?
    Paul?
    Lot?
    Abraham?

    Are any of the above not saved in your opinion? Or are they all saved in your opinions?

    I'll await all your answers, and maybe see them, hopefully, in the morning.

    G'nite, all!

    Ed
     
    #10 EdSutton, Jul 23, 2007
  11. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    I don't mean to add my $00.02 but I couldn't keep silent any more. Sin is a condition or transgression of the law. My walk with Christ and salvation is not dependant of my relationship to the law. How can I sin when there is no law? My salvation is purely by faith and I no longer "know" sin.

    Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
    18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
    19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
    20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    I don't obey the law to be saved, I obey the law because I am saved.


    @Ed = I believe their faith was counted for righteousness...
     
    #11 LeBuick, Jul 23, 2007
  12. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    And the word is talking about thieves, not about the sin of stealing.

    Right. I don't see any other way to teach it.

    I don't think it's our concern how often it has to be in order to be continual. I think you just have to do what you're doing (preach against sin). Wrong is wrong, there's no two ways about it. You don't excuse something because it was only done once.

    But that doesn't mean it is impossible for a Christian to do wrong (sin). I think we have to recognize that there's a difference between theft and a thief, and admit that a Christian can do one without being the other. Like I said, it's absolutely wrong, but it's not impossible. Just look at what the Corinthians were doing (the sexual sin, for example), yet Paul didn't accuse them of being unsaved. He just verbally whacked them upside the head, as they deserved.
     
    #12 npetreley, Jul 24, 2007
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    You didn't add a necessary element to your inquiry. An element in context of Galatians 5 and you thefore made it impossible to answer with a simple yes or no.

    For intance is water wet?

    No if it is frozen.
    yes if it is not.

    Charles, you say that you are not a Christian.

    Then are you alive? Yes or no. The answer must be qualified.

    Yes - you are alive after the flesh typing away at your terminal.
    No - spiritually you are dead in your trespasses and sins.

    Galatians 5
    16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
    17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.​

    Paul is telling these Christians how to NOT do the works of the flesh by walking in the Spirit.

    Obviously this had been a problem with some of them, they were walking in the flesh therefore he is telling them how to remedy that situation. He goes on to say that this is why he says "so that ye cannot do the things that ye would".

    Apparently They wanted to be spiritual but were not.

    So the answer to your question can only be qualified with the context in which Galatians 5:19-21 is given.

    If they are walking in the Spirit no.
    Otherwise yes.

    Paul gives the remedy later in this passage:

    24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
    25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
    26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.​

    We are to crucify the flesh.

    If we don't then Paul in another place says this:

    Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.​


    Who are the "ye"? The Christians in Rome.

    Therefore if Christians do live after the flesh then Paul though the Spirit says they shall die. This happened to some of the Corinthian Christians who were "carnal".

    They were still frequenting the temples of their idols and therefore serving "devils" to which he says:

    1 Corinthians 10
    21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
    22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?​

    This and other kinds of carnal behaviour also led Paul (moved by the Spirit) to say:

    1 Corinthians 11
    30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
    31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
    32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.​

    The admonition here is that when we do carnal things we are to judge ourselves otherwise we will be chastened of the Lord so that we are not condemned with the world.

    HankD
     
    #13 HankD, Jul 24, 2007
  14. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    1Cr 5:11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

    1Cr 5:13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person

    Paul give them pretty stong orders, didn't he?
     
    #14 Brother Bob, Jul 24, 2007
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  15. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    3756
    ou
    ou
    oo, also (before a vowel)
    ouk ook, and (before an aspirate) ouch ookh a primary word; the absolute negative (compare 3361) adverb; no or not:--+ long, nay, neither, never, no (X man), none, (can-)not, + nothing, + special, un(-worthy), when, + without,

    1John 3:9 Textus R w/grammar tags
    paV <3956> {ANYONE} o <3588> {THAT} gegennhmenoV <1080> (5772) {HAS BEEN BEGOTTEN} ek <1537> t[SIZE=+1]ou[/SIZE] <3588> {OF} qe[SIZE=+1]ou[/SIZE] <2316> {GOD,} amartian <266> {SIN} [SIZE=+1]ou[/SIZE] <3756> {NOT} poiei <4160> (5719) {PRACTISES,} oti <3754> {BECAUSE} sperma <4690> {SEED} aut[SIZE=+1]ou[/SIZE] <846> {HIS} en <1722> {IN} autw <846> {HIM} menei <3306> (5719) {ABIDES,} kai <2532>
    {AND} [SIZE=+1]ou[/SIZE] <3756> dunatai <1410> (5736) {HE IS NOT ABLE} amartanein <264> (5721) {TO SIN,} oti <3754> {BECAUSE} ek <1537> t[SIZE=+1]ou[/SIZE] <3588> {OF} qe[SIZE=+1]ou[/SIZE] <2316> {GOD} gegennhtai <1080> (5769) {HE HAS BEEN BEGOTTEN.}

    ou <3756> dunatai <1410> (5736) {HE IS NOT ABLE} amartanein (cannot possible sin)


    Textus R
    paV o gegennhmenoV ek t[SIZE=+1]ou[/SIZE] qe[SIZE=+1]ou[/SIZE] amartian [SIZE=+1]ou[/SIZE] poiei oti sperma aut[SIZE=+1]ou[/SIZE] en autw menei kai [SIZE=+1]ou[/SIZE] dunatai amartanein oti ek t[SIZE=+1]ou[/SIZE] qe[SIZE=+1]ou[/SIZE] gegennhtai

    I didn't say I would not discuss the original language, it is just when someone can't prove his point using the scripture we have, the always go to the Greek, where they can get the translation they want. If you want to discuss Greek, that is what we will do, but I am not too good at it. I would hate to have to part ways over this.
     
    #15 Brother Bob, Jul 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 24, 2007
  16. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Back up a little in 1 Cor 5.

    Paul says to put this man out of fellowship. He doesn't say this man is not a Christian.

    In short, it is possible for a Christian to sin.
     
    #16 npetreley, Jul 24, 2007
  17. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Thats what I would do to Npet; . It is not my place to say who is a Christian and who is not, but I do have the scripture as a guide and judge them which are within,and let God judge them which are without. If he is put from among you, that is what scripture says. agree?
     
    #17 Brother Bob, Jul 24, 2007
  18. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    That's what scripture says, so I must agree, right?

    Yes, I agree. ;)
     
    #18 npetreley, Jul 24, 2007
  19. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I must clarify. I can't say who is a Christian or who is going to heaven, but I can give what I believe about the case, of which I must do. What bothers me, it seems there are many on BB that would never withdraw fellowship from anyone, regardless. They always seem to make a way for them and I think to do that, you are doing that person more harm than good. It is like baptizing children, of which I do not believe, there are many who go from that and some become the meanest people we have, but still say they were baptized. It don't help to give a person a false hope.
     
    #19 Brother Bob, Jul 24, 2007
  20. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    I agree fully with this statement.

    And I would also add, that it is no more helpful to take away real Biblical hope, as some seem to want to do, as well. Gotta' run for now.

    Ed
     
    #20 EdSutton, Jul 24, 2007
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