Re spirits in Prison and the common view

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Alfred Persson., Feb 6, 2013.

  1. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson.
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    Re spirits in Prison and the common view

    The common view misunderstands the antitype Peter sees in Baptism, he clearly said this isn't about water: "(not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1Pe 3:21 NKJ)

    The antitype then is

    12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. (Col 2:12 NKJ)

    Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    (Rom 6:4 NKJ)


    These aren't orphan texts, Peter is expositing a theme, verse 17 states his purpose:

    17 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

    Then Peter cites Christ's example and the good that came from suffering for good and not evil:

    18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, (1Pe 3:17-18 NKJ)

    So the tangible result of saving many who were lost CONFIRMS its "better, if it’s the will of God, to suffer".


    (The magnificent gymnastics Greek Masters perform forcing the "common view" upon the context confirms how inelegant it truly is. )

    So the TYPE Christ descending to these FOREMERLY DISOBEDIENT spirits in prison and preaching the gospel to them, and they answered with a good conscience toward God and so they ascended with Christ into the heavenlies.

    The ANTITYPE is how Christ descended to preach to the church and the answer of a good conscience also saved them and therefore they also ascended with Christ.

    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
    5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
    6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
    7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Eph 2:4-7 NKJ)


    Peter anticipated the common view, and tried to prevent its advance by denying he talked about water washing filth of the flesh.





    The common view also refuses to believe the same as Peter regarding the Nephilim and Sons of God in Gen c. 6.

    4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; (2Pe 2:4 NKJ)

    6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; (Jud 1:6 NKJ)


    The following can be deduced or induced from the Bible, space (and time!) does not allow me to detail the premises under girding every conclusion.

    Scripture says both the Nephilim (Satan's angels) and the "Sons of God" (God's angels) were contemporaries; The latter sent to counteract the Devil's rebellion against God.

    Evil men conspired with Satan and the Nephilm to seduce them with beautiful women.

    Both Nephilim and angelic sons of God had offspring…."men of renown" (who likely built Pumapunku).

    These all died in the flood. God wouldn't allow the angels flee
    . Angels are physical beings (Gen c. 6; 18) in the "Complete" (TELEIOS) and can be visible or invisible here in the "Partial" (MEROS)--1 Cor 13:10...but when the Flood came "all that was on the dry land, died. (Gen 7:22 NKJ)

    The angels were sent to Tatarus and bound in chains to await Judgment Day for the heinous crime of corrupting the image of God in man with angelic DNA, forcing God Flood the earth to destroy the abomination.

    Satan's war against the Seed by defiling its lineage, failed. Noah was perfect in his generations, angelic DNA free.

    Their human angel children being neither human or angel, were separated…those who repented were sent to prison to await what would be done to them. These Christ made a special trip to because they were a special case.

    Those hybrid human spirits who refused to repent became unclean spirits roaming the earth seeking corporeal pleasures, to fill up the measure of their sins.


    The rest of Satan's angels, who didn't have intercourse with humans…remain in third heaven accusing the brethren till they are cast out.


    When they are cast out is when it will again be like the Days of Noah, the Nephilim will return to gather humanity against Christ, via the antichrist…pretending to be UFO aliens sent to help mankind.
     
    #1 Alfred Persson., Feb 6, 2013
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  2. DHK

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    You have more imagination then Scriptural understanding.
    First, Christ never preached "the gospel" to any spirits in prison; the Bible doesn't say that any where. Like I said--your imagination.
    Second, there is only one way of salvation, and that is faith in Christ, and faith alone in Christ. Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works.
    There are no second chances. One can never work their way to heaven.

    Jesus said: I am the way the truth, the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me.
     
  3. Revmitchell

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    oh my word, demons have intercourse with demons? I suppose you believe in UFO's and big foot. Well i do hope the demons at least took proper precautions.


    What is wrong with people?
     
  4. annsni

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    Huh?????????????
     
  5. Alfred Persson.

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    So I have more imagination than scriptural understanding. Being you don't know me, didn't you overtax your imagination to arrive at that conclusion?

    Scripture says Christ preached to the spirits in prison.

    by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, (1Pe 3:19 NKJ)

    The word preached (2784 kerusso) is also translated as "proclaimed" deliverance here:

    "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; (Luk 4:18 NKJ)

    Notice the parallelism: "preach the gospel...heal the brokenhearted; proclaim liberty...recovery of sight"

    In the following the word translated preach(ed; ing; eth) or published is 2784 kerusso, the gospel is the subject being preached.

    KJV Matthew 4:23 *And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
    *35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
    KJV Matthew 24:14 *And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    KJV Matthew 26:13 *Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.
    KJV Mark 1:14 *Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
    KJV Mark 13:10 *And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
    KJV Mark 14:9 *Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.
    KJV Mark 16:15 *And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.


    While those with greater imagination than scriptural foundation believe nice people become scary and snarling ghosts when they die, that's not in the Bible.

    Christ didn't change from wanting to save the lost while alive, to a snarling ghost proclaiming doom---"to you I am not the way and the truth and the life..."

    Christ would go all the way down to a prison in the lower parts of hell, to tell pathetic spirits in prison they were doomed, as if they didn't already know?

    Is that really what you think Christ would say to spirits in prison?

    If these spirits in prison hadn't figured it out by then they were in a hopeless situation, then they had the IQ of a plant and should be excused for anything they did.

    Such dark imaginations are contradicted by the simple fact Jesus is God the Son, therefore unchangeable. So He was the same Person alive or dead and therefore proclaimed liberty to all captives, whether alive or dead.



    We are in agreement that Jesus is only way and salvation is by grace alone apart from any works we do. That does mean we can't work our way into heaven.

    But to say "there are no second chances" is truly astounding....so you accepted Christ the very first time you heard?!

    I don't know anyone, including myself who didn't require multiple chances to accept what preachers told us...

    But never on the first chance. That would be special indeed.
     
    #5 Alfred Persson., Feb 7, 2013
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  6. annsni

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    Hebrews 9:27

    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
     
  7. Alfred Persson.

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    Heb 9:27 actually supports Postmortem judgment on Judgment Day, and not upon death just as the "offering once" and Christ's second coming didn't happen together.

    Notice the correspondence:

    "So Christ" says His offering once and then the Second Coming correspond to man's dying once and then the Judgment.

    27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

    28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb 9:24-28 NKJ)

    In both there is a long time between the death/offering and judgment/second coming.

    So your argument is totally contradicted by the very proof text you cite.
     
    #7 Alfred Persson., Feb 7, 2013
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  8. Alfred Persson.

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    demons have intercourse with demons? I suppose you believe in UFO's and big foot.

    I never said that...and I said the Nephilim (fallen angels) would likely pretend to be UFOs in the end time strong delusion.

    So where did you get that? Imagination?

    Do you also believe Christ became a scary ghost proclaiming doom to the spirits in prison?

    Inquiring minds want to know.
     
    #8 Alfred Persson., Feb 7, 2013
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  9. Alfred Persson.

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    Didn't mean to disturb you.
     
  10. Thinkingstuff

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    Its seems there are multiple schools of thought when it comes to the Nephalim 1) Decendents of the Daughters of Cain and the Sons of Seth. Seth's Children being considered the "sons of God" because of their fellowship with God. 2) Decendents of the sexual relations between women and fallen angels considered the "Sons of God" because of their supernatural being. Interestingly enough rabbinic tradition lead to these two conclusions as well. The book of Enoch holds to the latter view where the book of Jasher from a 13 century rabbi holds the former. Interesting also to note that one patristic writer I read believes the latter form and holds that not only did these fallen angels produce offspring with women but they taught "magic" to these women as well which the patristic writer concludes that magic no longer "works" because Christ's resurrection defeated all world systems.

    However, I don't see the connection between this small referrence in Genesis ot the Nephalim and the "spirits preached to in prison." I think the traditional view is that (and I have little knowledge about this because I haven't studied it well.) The place of the dead was divided into two area's the holding place of the righteous and the place of torment for the unrighteous. In both cases neither dead is at liberty or with God. So When Jesus' died he is believed to have decended to the place of the dead for the righteous and preached to those in holding rather than those in torment and as he raises he brings those who believe him with him who are now in heaven. But in my mind this is very speculative.

    However the OP makes a correlation that makes the speculation I just mentioned even greater thus I would suppose less cohesive with Judeo-Christian thought. However, It would certainly make for good fantasy if you wrote a novel about it. Again, I've never really researched this highly speculative area.
     
  11. DHK

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    Now you are reading into the text that which is not there. Where does it say that he preached "deliverance," or "the gospel," or any other such theme. He doesn't.
    If anything he proclaims HIS victory at the cross.
    These are the ones that followed Satan in a great rebellion against Christ in heaven (Christ is deity, part of the triune Godhead). Now this is victory over them. This is a proclamation of victory.
    No one ever has a second chance; no one!! They are doomed forever. Otherwise the Scripture would be contradicting itself. It is a contradiction for Christ to preach the gospel to those that are forever doomed and have no chance to believe it.
     
  12. Alfred Persson.

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    I won't write a book here, but an essay is ok.

    God wouldn't flood the earth because a few of his "holy men" married badly…we don't see that reoccurring anytime after the flood. God doesn't change.

    But it should be clear from Christ's and His apostles words the Sethite interpretation is impossible.

    For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; (2Pe 2:4 NKJ)

    And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; (Jud 1:6 NKJ)

    Christ likened Noah's Day to the End time:

    "And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: (Luk 17:26 NKJ)

    It wasn't Christ's purpose to list all the parallels, but there are others:

    Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." (Rev 12:12 NKJ)

    9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
    10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. (Rev 20:9-10 NKJ)

    Some of what will occur in the end time happened in the Days of Noah. Satan and his angels, along with those angels who took human wives* (the Nephilim) were deceiving the entire earth to rebel. (I believe the "strong delusion" is Nephilim disguised as UFO aliens manifesting the spirit of antichrist lying signs and wonders--- מְשֹׁמֵם is a participle, and can be rendered as such: “on the wings of abomination he comes desolating.”-Dan 9:27, Delitzsch, Commentary on the Old Testament )

    God sent the "sons of God" to counter the rebellion and teach mankind the right way.

    Wicked men conspired with Satan to stop them, by seducing them with their beautiful daughters.

    This made God so angry He ordains all of them will die in 120 years.

    Genesis 6:1 When humankind began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,
    2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humankind were beautiful. Thus they took wives for themselves from any they chose.
    3 So the LORD said, "My spirit will not remain in humankind indefinitely, since they are mortal. They will remain for 120 more years."

    The Nephilim cannot be the children of these sons of God or the sons of God themselves because they are in juxtaposition:

    4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (and also after this) when the sons of God were having sexual relations with the daughters of humankind, who gave birth to their children. They were the mighty heroes of old, the famous men.

    So both the Nephilim and the Sons of God are producing offspring contaminating nearly the whole human race with angel DNA, which defiles the image of God in man and would prevent the Woman's Seed from being born:

    And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel." (Gen 3:15 NKJ)

    Because God gave man the Dominion (Gen 1:26), nothing can be done on earth without his consent---This explains why Satan and his angels don't appear and work their evil, they must always work through men.---Therefore God blames man for what has happened and He is angry:

    5 But the LORD saw that the wickedness of humankind had become great on the earth. Every inclination of the thoughts of their minds was only evil all the time.
    6 The LORD regretted that he had made humankind on the earth, and he was highly offended.
    7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe humankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth– everything from humankind to animals, including creatures that move on the ground and birds of the air, for I regret that I have made them." (Gen 6:1-7 NET)

    Gen 6:9 corroborates angel dna defilement of the image of God in man is the reason God flooded the earth. His "family records...without defect be he generation in" (Lexham)

    His family tree was angelic dna free.

    This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. (Gen 6:9 NKJ)

    (However, the persistence of the Nephilim's offspring after all flesh on dry land died, indicates some in the Ark were contaminated. Calamity stuck so precisely to eradicate them I infer they were Divinely targeted for extermination).

    These human-angel "men of renown" were separated from the angels who sinned, rather than join them in tartarus…they were sent into a special prison.

    Peter cited these "formerly disobedient" spirits in prison as proof for the maxim "suffering, if its the will of God, results in gains for the kingdom." That's only true if Christ saved them, as the context clearly implies.

    Noah was mentioned to identify who these spirits in prison were. But Peter notes they also via the antitype of baptism, where they were imprisoned by death, but risen in Christ because they, like Noah & crew...gave the answer of a good conscience to the preaching...

    Unclean spirits don't seem to be human or angel, they always seek corporeality via possession. I deduce they are unrepentant hybrid human angel spirits, and so God permitted they remain to fill up the full measure of their sin.


    *"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
    (Mat 22:30 NKJ)

    Jesus' comparison is with "angels OF GOD in heaven", nothing is affirmed about angels of the Devil on earth.
     
    #12 Alfred Persson., Feb 8, 2013
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  13. Alfred Persson.

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    Change:

    Noah was mentioned to identify who these spirits in prison were. But Peter notes they also via the antitype of baptism, where they were imprisoned by death, but risen in Christ because they, like Noah & crew...gave the answer of a good conscience to the preaching...

    To read:

    Noah was mentioned to identify who these spirits in prison were. But Peter notes they also were saved because they gave the answer of a good conscience to God, and so saved through the devastation of the waters...
     
  14. Alfred Persson.

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    Part I

    If you ignore the reasons I give for my exegesis, this isn't a discussion, its a diatribe. As I said in my opening post:

    These aren't orphan texts, Peter is expositing a theme, verse 17 states his purpose:

    17 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

    Then Peter cites Christ's example and the good that came from suffering for good and not evil:

    18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, (1Pe 3:17-18 NKJ)

    So the tangible result of saving many who were lost CONFIRMS its "better, if it’s the will of God, to suffer".

    Therefore the theory Christ proclaimed doom is contradicted by the context, by Peter's motive for citing this event...

    If Christ preached doom, then this is not an anti-type of baptism how it saved the church...

    Peter was very clear, this isn't about water...therefore the symbolism of baptism being referenced is "the answer of a good conscience toward God which results in dying with Christ, and being raised with Christ into the new life, the heavenlies:

    Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4 NKJ)

    buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. (Col 2:12 NKJ)

    5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
    6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (Eph 2:5-6 NKJ)

    That idea is what Peter referenced when he cites Noah and the flood, the answer of a good conscience that results in salvation.

    Therefore IT IS IMPOSSIBLE Peter cites Christ's preaching to the spirits in prison as some kind of proclamation of doom.

    Your exegesis contradicts the context.



    That contradicts the context, Peter isn't extolling Christ's victory over anyone, he cites His example of the just suffering for the unjust, that He may lead others to God:

    17 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
    18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
    19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, (1Pe 3:17-19 NKJ)

    Without any scripture proof you allege these spirits are still enemies of God, yet Peter says "who formerly were disobedient" (1Pe 3:20 NKJ).

    You and I were formerly disobedient, we may have been enemies of God before, but now that we gave the answer of a good conscience that saves, we are risen with Christ.

    Clearly Peter didn't see them, and wouldn't see us, as enemies of God.

    I had more than a second chance, can't remember how many chances God gave me. And if you are honest, neither did you believe in Christ the very first time you heard of him.

    So if "no one ever has a second chance, no one"----YOU are doomed.

    No, Scripture contradicts your irrelevant thesis. The context is very clear, they are cited because they are the Type, baptism the Antitype which resembles something else. Just as Christ came down and preached to us prisoners of death, and we gave the answer of a good conscience that saves and so were made to sit with Him in the heavenlies, so also the TYPE where Christ went and preached to these spirits in prison, and these FORMERLY DISOBEDIENT therefore must have given the same answer of a good conscience towards God, and so they were saved.

    Being neither human or angel they were a special case, therefore Christ made a special trip to save them…suffering for doing good than for evil, the just for the unjust that He might bring them and us to God.

    How is it possible to read that and suppose Christ preached doom to those who already knew they were doomed.

    It may be popular to suppose friends and relatives become snarling ghosts when they die, but Christ is God the Eternal Son of the Father, impeccably righteous and love, and unchanging for He is the True God and eternal life.
    So even the verse you cite contradicts the theory Christ preached doom, THAT is not what Christ came to do. He came to save the lost.

    Never said any parallelism existed in those entities….frankly, that's imagination talking, not fact. Copy paste the exact quote where I even hinted at what allege.

    Its not dialogue when you misrepresent what I say.
    It certainly isn't loving.
     
  15. Alfred Persson.

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    Part II

    Incorrect, Repentance possible in Sheol/Hades, that the spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus:
    deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
    (1Co 5:5 NKJ);(1Pe 4:6 NKJ)

    Its elementary Hades is temporary, Gehenna or lake of fire is the permanent place of much worse punishment.

    Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev 20:14 NKJ)

    The "second death" is the death from which there is no return. Obviously fire won't annihilate fire, so right there you have to adjust to what is being said. Death and Hades will not return, they are cast into the lake of fire, a garbage dump for refuse where the fires burn like a lake and this ruins Death and Hades (which served their purpose and were emptied) for any future use. They aren't annihilated...they are ruined never to return.


    Compared to Gehenna of fire----where the wicked are imprisoned in contemptible flesh (Dan 12:2) animated corpses (Isa 66:24) that are bound hand and foot (Mat 22:13) so they can't move to lessen the intense physical pain like unto fire and a corrupting worm, causing them to uncontrollably weep and gnash their teeth (Mark 9:42-48)----a stint in Hades is like being on vacation, Dives was able to talk, think…interact with others.

    Therefore its clearly not God's intention Hades be for punishment only, He has Gehenna/Lake of Fire for that.

    The punishment in Hades appears to lead to repentance as that is precisely what we see it accomplishing in Dives in Luke c. 16. He was much changed individual.


    Scripture says there is repentance in Hades, I always believe scripture:
    28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
    29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (John 5:28-29 NKJ)
    So the dead hear while still in the gave just before they rise, therefore "those who have done good" includes what they did in hades, and they rise to a resurrection of life.
    The verb translated "have done" is "aorist participle usually refers to antecedent time with respect to the main verb.
    Heiser, M. S. (2005). Glossary of Morpho-Syntactic Database Terminology. Logos Bible Software.

    So there is repentance in Hades, a "living according to God in the spirit" with the goal of being saved out of it, by God the Son (John 1:1; 5:22; Rev 1:8; 20:11) on Judgment Day:

    13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
    14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
    (Rev 20:13-15 NKJ)

    "Anyone not found" implies some were found---the objection this is a "first class conditional with no reference to reality" is truly ODD as the clause isn't a hypothetical argument but an inspired observation by John as this event is divinely revealed to him.

    So the Day of Salvation is "now", but Paul wrote that about AD 55-56 so you missed the Day of Salvation, right?
    Of course not, the text says the Day of salvation happens "In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you." (2Co 6:2 NKJ)

    So in the accepted time Christ when and preached to these spirits in prison, and these FORMERLY DISOBEDIENT gave the answer of a good conscience towards God and therefore God helped them.

    Incorrect, that text contradicts your argument.
    In context, verse 28 "so Christ" is a correspondence with verse 27 "as it is appointed":

    27a And as it is appointed for men to die once,
    28a so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

    27b but after this the judgment,
    28b To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

    Just as there is a long time interval between the first coming and second coming, there is a long time interval between death and the judgment.

    Therefore the judgment referred to is Judgment Day after Christ's coming, not immediately after one dies.


    Led people in paradise to heaven? Clearly you haven't studied this carefully, paradise is in third heaven, and the saints have always gone there when they died, even OT saints….that's why Abraham was already there:
    2 I know a man …was caught up to the third heaven.
    3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
    4 how he was caught up into Paradise. (2Co 12:2-4 NKJ)

    I bet you also think only spirits or souls exist in heaven, but if that were true…why doesn't Paul KNOW if this was in the body or not?

    Dives was in Hades, Abraham and Lazarus in Third Heaven, but both are in the "unseen realm" which is what Sheol or Hades means. Yes, there is a great gulf separating the two, but both remain in the "unseen realm" and THAT is why the OT says both good and bad go there.

    Christ didn't relocate the OT saints at all, they were already in heaven "gathered to their people:

    8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. (Gen 25:8 NKJ)

    Angels do this work, gather the saved and take them to third heaven or paradise. When an unbeliever dies, they appear in the appropriate section of Hades where the torments match their sins. As Dives could still see third heaven, he wasn't in the lowest hell where the eternally lost are. They see nothing thick gloom.

    22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
    23 "And being in torments in Hades, (Luk 16:22-23 NKJ)
     
  16. annsni

    annsni
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    This is not speaking of a dead person but one who is alive.

    This is not at all saying that the gospel was preached to those in hades - but, as Matthew Henry words it "For this cause was the gospel preached to all the faithful of old, who are now dead in Christ" In other words, it was preached to those who were alive but now dead.

    Yes he was but let's look at what Abraham said to him: "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."



    There is no good in hades. You misinterpret Scripture to something that no scholar would ever agree with - nor a Sunday school child.

    Yes - Those who's names were in the Book of Life were saved and those who's names were not were not saved. Your name is not written in the Book of Life after your death.


    There is no Scripture anywhere that says that those souls in hell were saved. The day of salvation is today. Are you saved?


    This is not comparing time of one to the other.



    There are three heavens. The sky above us, space beyond us and heaven. The third heaven is the dwelling place of God. This man (John) saw heaven.

    Because he didn't know. But we know from reading Revelation that it was a vision.

    The "unseen realm" is the grave.

    Since we have been cleansed from sin and now are clothed in the righeousness of Christ, there is no "appropriate section of Hades where the torments match" our sin. We are not tormented. We are glorified.

    And you do realize that this was most likely a parable and that there is a "great gulf". This man was eternally lost as we see by Abraham's scolding of him.

    You have some very strange beliefs that are based on false teaching and not on Scripture. You may want to seek the Lord for wisdom and truth in your study because you lack both.
     
  17. DHK

    DHK
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    Yes, he is writing to suffering Christians. He gives Christ as our example who also suffered, giving us the supreme example in that he suffered the penalty for our sins.
    However, there is no conclusion to be made that one can be saved through suffering. He is writing to believers who are already saved but are facing intense persecution.
    First, he proclaimed his victory to spirits imprisoned forever until the final sentence at which time they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
    Second, baptism never saved anyone. It simply gets people wet.
    Third, the "water" here is an agent of destruction. The waters of the flood destroyed every living thing in sight. That is what the Flood did.
    I never brought baptism into this discussion. It is a red herring that you have inserted. It is my guess that you are not a Baptist, but you are Church of Christ. Am I right? You believe salvation is by works, correct? You believe one must be baptized in order to be saved, true?
    I didn't say it was. I said it was a proclamation of victory; Christ's victory at the cross.
    That is your opinion. My opinion is that you don't even understand how to be saved, or what the gospel is, and therefore your opinion isn't worth much.
    He then simply tells what he did and where he went after he was raised from the dead. You have a problem with that? Take it up with the Holy Spirit.
    Let's look at other parallel passages and see what the Bible says about who these spirits are and what their real situation is:

    [FONT=&quot]1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]These fallen spirits are in prison. They were in the past disobedient spirits, cast down to hell, delivered into chains of darkness, reserved unto judgment, reserved in everlasting chains unto darkness unto the judgment of the great day (The Great White Throne Judgement)[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]There is no second chance.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]In 1Pet.3:19 the word “preached” can just as well be translated “proclaim.” Jesus went and “proclaimed” his victory over Satan. The work of the cross was finished. He cried out in John 19:30, “It is finished.” Satan has been conquered. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
    I have plenty of Scriptural proof that these formerly disobedient spirits are still rebellious, will never have a second chance and can never be reconciled to God.
    We weren't created angels, and never saw the glories of heaven, as these did. We didn't follow Satan in his rebellion against God.
    It is clear that he did see them as enemies of God. In fact it is Peter that writes concerning them:
    [FONT=&quot]For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;[/FONT]
    I gave you my testimony. I did.
    Your opinion is false. There are many that have been saved the first time that they have heard the gospel. However this is speaking of fallen angels, and not mankind so your whole point is moot.
    Not true. You are mixing up two different passages of Scripture. Your exposition of this passage is wrong.
    And then it stops there.
    But that is not what it says. You are reading things into the Scripture that aren't there. They are reserved for judgment in chains of darkness unto the day of judgment. No second chances. Peter says this himself. Read 2Pet.2:4.
    Those that are reserved in chains of darkness unto the day of judgment cannot be saved. There are no second chances. There is no salvation for them. He proclaimed his victory to them and that is all.
    Yes, they knew they were doomed; but they are not omniscient. That is why he went and proclaimed his victory to them.
    We don't believe in ghosts. Are you that superstitious? God is a God of love, yes; but he is also a God of justice.
    Read the Scriptures posted.
    I copy and pasted the verses for you. I gave the parallelism from parallel Scriptures. I don't see any misrepresentation when the parallel is from Scripture.
     
  18. DHK

    DHK
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    Show me just one example.
    The above is not an example.
    1Cor.5:5 is speaking about a man in Corinth who committed incest. He wasn't in Hades or Sheol. In fact he repented and came back into the church. How you love to take Scripture out of context!!!

    1Pet.4:6--What does it really say:
    1 Peter 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
    5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
    6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
    --Everyone of us shall give account of ourselves to God. The ones that "are dead," had already died, but they had already had the gospel witnessed to them, and therefore will give account of themselves for that. Verse 5 verifies that. There is no second chance.
    All at that time knew that "hades" referred to "hell" an eternal place of suffering. But since you don't know the Greek language you wouldn't know that would you?
    Hades was hell. It was a word figuratively used as hell. If I throw a match, already lit, into a fireplace, I am throwing one fire into another. That is what takes place at the Lake of Fire. It is the throwing of one fire into a larger fire. Hell, and all that is therein will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
    First Gehenna is a Greek word, not a Hebrew word and therefore not found in the OT.
    Second, all that you have demonstrated is that there are two different words that are translated "hell."
    Whether it be Hades, Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire, all will want to escape from there. Do you know of any that will relish their time there? And yet it will not lead to repentance. Jesus taught that it won't. Read the conclusion of Luke 16. Even if one rose from the dead, still they would not believe. The Pharisees didn't believe though Lazarus was raised from the dead, and they still didn't believe after Christ rose from the dead. What's the point?

    This speaks of two separate resurrections: the resurrection of the just, and the resurrection of the unjust.
    If they are in Hades they haven't done one good thing. That is why they are there.
    And so?
    "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."

    Nothing but a final sentence of condemnation.
    The elect's names were found written in the book of life before the foundation of the earth. God knew who would be saved and who would not.
    Learn something about dispensations. When Christ comes this dispensation of grace will end. Then there will be no more chance to be saved. Christ will come in judgment.
    There is no more chance for fallen angels. They had their chance. They rebelled, in heaven, against a holy and just God. No more chances will be given to them. Read the other passages of Scripture.
    We believers wait for his coming. Those who rebel and have rebelled wait in fear. Judgment awaits them, such as those fallen angels. There are no second chances.
    That is true, but as far as mankind is concerned his decision must be made while he is alive on earth.
    Paul had a vision. Don't use it for doctrine.
    Jesus told the thief on the cross "Today thou shalt be with me in paradise."
    Paradise wasn't the third heaven, per se. It was part of Sheol. It is pictured in Luke 16, and is often translated in the OT as either hell or the grave. It is the "place of the departed spirits." One compartment was for the unsaved, like Dives, and the other for the saved, like Lazarus and Abraham, and the thief on the cross.
    After his death Jesus came, "and led captivity captive" emptying paradise of the OT saints and taking them to heaven. Now there remains "hell", which will some day be cast into the Lake of Fire.
    Paul said:
    I am in a strait betwixt two: whether to depart and be with the Lord,
    or to remain and be with you.
    He knew the difference. His spirit would go to heaven when he would die.
    And???
    Your opinion and that is all.
    This speaks of physical death only.
    You have a rich imagination, but no Biblical proof. Where do you get this idea that this is the work of angels? Paradise doesn't exist any longer.
    And no second chances.
     
  19. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson.
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    I mean you no disrespect, but the REASONS I gave for believing as I do...you ignore and respond only by citing what you believe.

    There are rules for arguing a point, and you aren't following them.

    I once responded to others as you, but I educated myself

    There is a Rulebook for Arguments, by Anthony Weston. Amazon has a Kindle version. I highly recommend it.

    Synopsis
    A Rulebook for Arguments is a succinct introduction to the art of writing and assessing arguments, organized around specific rules, each illustrated and explained soundly but briefly. This widely popular primer - translated into eight languages - remains the first choice in all disciplines for writers who seek straightforward guidance about how to assess arguments and how to cogently construct them.
    The fourth edition offers a revamped and more tightly focused approach to extended arguments, a new chapter on oral arguments, and updated examples and topics throughout.


    Its fun winning the debate, instead of the usual "you say your piece, I say mine and never will we agree." That gets old, its more fun to win the argument. The only way to do that is to focus on the reasons for belief, not the belief itself.


    Its because I have high hopes of great discussion on the reasons for believing a doctrine, that I recommend this to you.

    peace
    al
     
    #19 Alfred Persson., Feb 9, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 9, 2013
  20. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson.
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    Yes, but how does that change Paul's teaching its possible to hand someone over to Satan so their flesh is destroyed i.e., killed horribly by diseases…and yet after the person dies, their spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord Jesus, on Judgment Day?

    It doesn't matter to Paul's teaching whether this person repented or not, the fact Paul taught it is what matters. He couldn't say a person who was handed over to Satan who then destroyed his flesh---could have their spirit saved on the Day of the LORD Jesus---unless its true.

    The words "all the faithful of old" are not in the text or implied by it, therefore Peter doesn't say what Matthew Henry says.

    Read Peter's words again, he is talking to the church about mockers who spoke evilly of them when the gospel was preached to them:

    4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
    5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
    6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
    (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

    Peter is calling them [spiritually] dead, and it was FOR THIS CAUSE the Gospel was preached to them [by the church & Peter], that they be judged for living according to men in the flesh [and so be sentenced to Hades]---and in order that they know how to live according to God in the spirit while in Hades.

    Its clear that's where they were, mockers don't go to heaven when they die. So these are living according to God in the spirit in Hades.

    The most likely reason for someone living according to God in the spirit when in Hell, is they hope to be resurrected out of it.

    I agree, there is no salvation possible in Hades, our LORD plainly said they can't cross over.

    BUT that doesn't mean there isn't salvation when Hades is emptied, on Judgment Day or "day of the Lord Jesus":

    13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
    14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:13-15 NKJ)

    26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
    27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
    28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
    29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Joh 5:26-29 NKJ)

    2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. (Dan 12:2-3 NKJ)

    Judgment Day has people rising to life, or condemnation….its not condemnation only.

    I put away childlish beliefs when I grew up. As for Scholars, they disagree with each other on everything.

    I am citing scripture and pointing out the reasons why I believe as I do, like a Berean Christian. Feel free to invite a scholar to discuss this with me…I would love it.

    I partly agree.

    The Elect chosen before the foundation of the world have their names written in the book of life forever. God has predestined they will be conformed to the image of His Eternal Son Jesus (Rom 8:28ff). They can't be blotted out from the book

    BUT there are those who weren't predestined to salvation, and they can be added to the book, or blotted out from it:

    David would not pray "do not list their names with the godly" if it were impossible names be written therein:

    May their names be deleted from the scroll of the living! Do not let their names be listed with the godly! (Psa 69:28 NET)

    Jesus contradicts theory names cannot be added or deleted to the book of life after the foundation of the world:

    "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Rev 3:5 NKJ)

    If the book of life had ONLY the names of the Elect in it, then Jesus is threatening one of God's elect with "deselection" and the doctrine of Eternal Security is wrong and that is impossible as we are saved by grace, not works, its a gift by God accomplished by His solitary creative act and not by our power:

    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
    9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
    10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
    (Eph 2:8-10 NKJ)

    THEREFORE names can be written in, or deleted from the book---that weren't written in from before the foundation of the world


    Yes, saved to the uttermost.

    I agree, salvation in Hades is impossible. Judgment Day is when people who were written in, or blotted out from the book of life---are saved or lost.

    BUT your interpretation is a problem for all of us; Paul wrote that about AD 55, and if the Day of Salvation was back then, we are both lost.

    Therefore I read the text again, and it says the Day of Salvation is when God reached out to help, and that could be any Day God chooses, it could even be on Judgment Day.

    2 For He says: "In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you." Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2Co 6:2 NKJ)


    The text contradicts your point, you cited this to prove judgment happens immediately after someone dies and so their eternal destiny is set...and that is incorrect.

    God the Holy Spirit made the correspondence to Christ clear ---Jesus suffering and second coming are separated by an interval of time, just as dying and Judgment are separated by an interval of time.


    Paul said he knew a man either in the body or in the spirit, who went into Third Heaven, and then He calls this place "paradise", therefore Third Heaven = Paradise:

    2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
    3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
    4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
    (2Co 12:2-4 NKJ)

    If we can't believe the Bible we are all most to be pitied, lost with no hope of ever being found.

    It can't be a meaningless parable when I cite it, and teaching of our LORD when you do about the gulf.


    Its true teaching, and strange only to those who don't know scripture and what the early church taught.
     
    #20 Alfred Persson., Feb 9, 2013
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