Re-thinking torture

Discussion in 'Politics' started by fromtheright, Jul 24, 2006.

  1. fromtheright

    fromtheright
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/2844.JPG>

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    0
  2. poncho

    poncho
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2004
    Messages:
    19,657
    Likes Received:
    128
    Try typing a word any word like SOURCE then highlight it by dragging your cursor across it then go up and click on the globe with the little chain. A box will pop up to put the url into...copy and paste the url to the story or article you want into the box. Your word should now be blue with a line under it.
     
  3. fromtheright

    fromtheright
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/2844.JPG>

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks very much, poncho! I just did another thread with the same style of posting links, but will definitely try your suggestion next time. And, again, thanks for the info.

    Hope all is well with you.
     
  4. Daisy

    Daisy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2003
    Messages:
    7,751
    Likes Received:
    0
    That doesn't look very different from your position all along - that sometimes torture is a good or, at least, appropriate thing. Where has the "rethinking" played a part?
     
  5. fromtheright

    fromtheright
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/2844.JPG>

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Daisy. Oh, I don't need to do any re-thinking. It was for the rest of y'all. ;)

    Really, I sent them because I had just read the Krauthammer article and thought I would find some other like-minded articles for those who believe that all forms of psychological/physical pressure should be banned or are illegal under the Geneva Convention(s) (mostly to address the former position). Banning all sounds great in an ideal world. The point of most of the articles is that we don't live in an ideal world and we should use more common sense in putting together guidelines/policy.
     
  6. genesis12

    genesis12
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    799
    Likes Received:
    1
    When under-educated jerks in our military use torture for fun, they condemn the whole of our military establishment to unthinkable torture everywhere they are sent, subsequently becoming captive. It's a tragic commentary on the failure of the generals to warn the troops about such illogical behavior. There are measures and procedures to gain information without resorting to the monstrous behavior of dictatorial regimes around the world.
     
  7. Daisy

    Daisy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2003
    Messages:
    7,751
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think there is any serious disagreement with that.
    Do you think lawful and unlawful combatants, particularly where the so-called unlawful combatants are citizens of an invaded country, should be subject to the same standards of decency or differing ones? If we believe we've captured a terrorist, should we be allowed to torture him/her to find out for sure? If we are sure (caught in the act) should we be allowed to torture him/her to get more information in a critical period of time? How many hours, days, weeks, months or years before the critical time can be considered over?

    These are gray areas for some.
     
  8. carpro

    carpro
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Messages:
    20,927
    Likes Received:
    296
    Name one country since 1940 that has treated American POWs according to the rules of the Geneva Convention.
     
  9. fromtheright

    fromtheright
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/2844.JPG>

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    0
    genesis

    Did you read any of the linked articles? The recommendations included in some of them were designed to avoid just the sort of shenanigans that those folks engaged in.

    Do you consider what was done at Abu Ghraib "monstrous behavior" as practiced by "dictatorial regimes"?

    Thanks, carpro, for the reality check, too. It certainly doesn't mean that we treat others as Americans were treated but it would do many well to consider the humanity of prisoner treatment by Americans as opposed to how Americans have been treated. I would add, in reply to genesis, that the animals we are fighting against have sawed people's heads off. Our treatment of their prisoners is not going to be an "enlightened example" that they will follow. They are animals, pure and simple. The treatment recommended in the linked articles has nothing to do with how Americans have been treated, or a means of revenge, but simply common sense thinking of how we should treat such outlaw prisoners who have critical information.
     
    #9 fromtheright, Jul 24, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 24, 2006
  10. fromtheright

    fromtheright
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/2844.JPG>

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oops, double post.
     
  11. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    Nobody can. The Geneva Convention isn't worth the paper it is printed on, because the only country held to it is the US, IMO.
     
  12. poncho

    poncho
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2004
    Messages:
    19,657
    Likes Received:
    128

    Well hey if they are no more than animals then lets sterilize them all so they can't breed! Isn't that what Kissenger and Malthus would suggest the UN to do for the good of humanity or was that Archie Bunker?

    And to think I'm the one that gets asked if I belong to any hate groups. Apparently not the one you guys do. :laugh:
     
  13. fromtheright

    fromtheright
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/2844.JPG>

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    0
    LE,

    I would venture to guess that other "Allied" powers have as well: Great Britain, Australia, France (man, I'm really struggling not to throw a joke in there), etc. Your point remains, though, that countries governed by totalitarians treat their prisoners barbarically because they do not hold to Western/Christian values regarding human life. As carpro said, Americans are not treated nearly as well as we treat prisoners from other countries, including the barbarians.
     
  14. fromtheright

    fromtheright
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/2844.JPG>

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    0
    poncho,

    Those who use hand saws to saw other people's heads off are animals. Call it "Archie Bunker" if you like. Just callin' 'em like I see 'em. Not hate, just reality.
     
    #14 fromtheright, Jul 24, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 24, 2006
  15. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    The best way to extract information from the terrorists is to make them read Daisy's posts and play the theme from the Good, Bad and the Ugly at the same time.
     
  16. fromtheright

    fromtheright
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/2844.JPG>

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    0
    SN, I know you're teasing but I just wanted to give a plug for Daisy. She is a tough debater with a big heart. We differed strongly on this subject a while back and she asked some really challenging questions to which I still owe her some answers.
     
  17. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    Of course, you are correct. And it's still not worth the paper it is printed on. That is probably the reason we have not definitively won a war since WW2. And we certainly won't win the so-called "war on terror." When you are dealing with people who have reprobate minds soaked in an islamic ideology and fueled by hate and drugs, there is no even playing field with which to play these games. How goofy to give Geneva Convention protection and Constitutional Rights to people who want to die for allah anyway by blowing themselves up. We should grant their wishes.
     
  18. fromtheright

    fromtheright
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/2844.JPG>

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    2,772
    Likes Received:
    0
    LE,

    I disagree. I think that the Geneva Convention is good in offering standards, including standards by which we can be measured. One difference, though, is that we use them to judge ourselves, which our enemies don't do, precisely because they are, yes poncho, animals (whether of the jihadist or Communist breed). I do strongly object, however, to criticism from such countries as Cuba, Libya, and Sudan who have no business judging ANYONE and certainly should have no place on any international human rights body. Also, It is simply pathetic to compare Abu Ghraib with the actions of our enemies, especially when one also adds to that the hand-wringing that we did as a country when confronted with the facts of what happened there.

    We do agree, though, that we should not grant Geneva Convention protection or Constitutional rights to such prisoners. There is a part of me that would love nothing more than to see revenge carried out against them, but, fortunately, it is not and should not be allowed (a point also made in at least one of the linked articles, I think the Krauthammer article), but that doesn't mean the comforts of home either.
     
    #18 fromtheright, Jul 24, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 24, 2006
  19. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ah, yes. You bring up a good point. And all the Nations of the Earth (besides all humans) will be judged by Almighty God one day. Too bad we don't afford Geneva Convention protection to the unborn in the womb. (not trying to hijack this thread, BTW)
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    I oppose torture due to the bad effect on the people and
    societies that practice it. BTW, it isn't especially the
    bad influence on the tortured as those who torture.
    If as much as 1% of the people in a culture are tortured
    during their lifetime, that society is incapable of functioning.

    Torture is never nice, never appropriate, never American,
    never Christian, never Baptist :(
    BTW, torture is also a poor way to gather data.
    People under torture will say anything to keep from being
    tortured. So the truth has to be weeded out using
    other EFFICENT data gathering techniques.

    In the '70s i was active in Education circles trying to get
    torture (hazing) taken out of the public Secondary Schools.
    Even in 2006 hazing rears it's ugly head. The fight
    against hazing continues just as the fight aginst slavery
    has to continue. That's a good idea, Ed:
    Slavery and Torture are twin Demons :(
     

Share This Page

Loading...