reaching out to homosexuals

I agree. What is being touted is a psychosocial babble gospel. Jesus never said we are to "walk in their shoes" as was mentioned, nor are Christians supposed to "understand." He said, "Go and sin no more."

 

Certainly, this is more effective, loving, and supporting than finger wagging. This is not tantamount to accepting the sin.

Sidenote: Which exactly are you referring to? Homosexuals, or sodomites? The highest ration of people engaging in sodomy are heterosexual married people who are faithful to their spouses. OTOH, referring to a "homosexual" does not necessarily mean that person is committing sinful sexual acts, any more than the word "heterosexual" referrs to a person committing sinful sexual acts. I'm going to presume that you're referring to a person engaging in same gender sexual behavior. Okay, now back to the topic...

One of the problems with drug addiction, as well as alcoholism, is that you no longer have the power to overcome these conditions without proper treatment. It's not simply a matter of choice (although admitting you have a problem is the first step). Rather, proper treatment is essential. These are not simply sinful conditions. They're legitimate diseases.

Christian tolerance is not a matter of political correctness. If it happpens to coincide with political correctness, it that fact should be of no consequence to the Christian. I don't care if my actions are politically correct, so long as they're scripturally appropriate. Finger wagging is not biblically apprporiate.

That starts with you and me pointing the finger at ourselves. It does not start with you and me pointing the finger at someone else.

We are no less sinners when we're saved than when we're lost. The only difference is that we no longer have to bear the burden our sin carries. I probably sin just as much as I did when I was unsaved. I've been saved for some 20 years. But I'm still a sinner. If I didn't recognize that fact about myself, I'd be a liar in denial.

Broccoli is revolting and disgusting, but it's not a sin (well, maybe to me it is). OTOH, cheating on one's taxes, speeding, and leaving work early without permission are not revolting and disgisting, yet they are 100% sinful actions. I don't think placing subjective labels on objective actions is fruitful. OTOH, calling something for what it is (for example, saying that unmarried sexual activity is a sin) is appropriate. We need to be careful how we do it. We don't want to push a sinner away from a relationship with Christ. We want to draw them closer. If I were to say to a practicing homosexual, "I'm just as much a sinner as you or aanyone else", I'm acting much more in the CChristian spirit than "You're a sinner".

 

Indeed, but he said that only after saying "I don't condemn you either".

 

I agree also 100%. Homosexuality is wrong and sinful and so is murder, child rape, rape etc.... But as christians God commands us to love the sinner hate the sin. Christians are just as guilty of bashing as the secular world is.
I can not tell you how many times I have hear the word "faggot" used toward someone that was a homosexual. Or some other derogatory remark that I care not to repeat.
That to me also is foul and sinful.

I myself do not believe in homosexuality, I know it is wrong and I will tell a homosexual it is wrong. I will tell them what God thinks of them. But I will not treat them as if they are not human either. I have been friends with many of them and have family members that are Gay. They are human beings.

It is one thing to preach the Gospel message to them and try to get them to see the wickedness of their ways, and I will argue the point that they were not born that way but have made a choice to be that way. And then it's another thing to "Fag Bash."
That sure will not get them to listen to anything you have to say.

LauraB

 

I have no problem saying homosexuality is a sin and I never would condone it. However, I don't think to show the love of Christ to homosexuals is to be tolerant of sin. I don't think that trying to talk to them as Jesus talked to the woman at the well is to be tolerant of sin. I don't think that what Gene or others or myself were saying in the other discussion was to be tolerant of sin and if you are saying that, that is an unfair accusation.

People are saved in the midst of sin. If someone like this does not show repentance and does not show a desire to leave old behavior behind, then there is a problem. If someone in the church is continuing in sin and does not repent, then we have the Biblical mandate to remove them (after confronting them about it).

But for people outside the church, we are told that God judges them. When Paul was telling the Corinthian church to remove the man who was sleeping with his father's wife, he also said,

We can call sin as sin, but we are not to feel superior to unbelievers. We are also told:

I think you are making a false dichotomoy between calling sin as sin and being loving toward unbelievers. There is not a conflict.

 

In other words, we can finger point and act in an unchristian and unloving manner towards a another person, because, after all, it's not going to drive them further away from the Gospel. Ridiculous! That's hypercalvinist drivel. Sounds to me like an excuse to engaging in unloving behavior.

 

You might want to try opening your eyes. I submit that perhaps you're simply acepting of the bashing behavior. I don't use my faith as an excuse to bash. OTOH, I also don't use grace as an excuse to excuse sin, either.

 

The trick is to put it in God's perspective. How would you treat a person who was involved in some other sin? The homosexual should be treated the same way we treat any other person who is in known sin of any kind.

Remember that to God, sin is sin. It is man that has placed degrees on sin.

God loves you. God loves the thief. God loves the homosexual. God loves the liar.

"Hate the sin, love the sinner."

 

Debby in Philly said [q]God loves you. God loves the thief. God loves the homosexual. God loves the liar.

"Hate the sin, love the sinner." [/q]
Please read Pslams 5:5. God uses the word "hare". He hates the workers of iniquity. Thatis the person, not just the act. We just need to understand that what God is saying He rejects those who reject Him.
I spend a lot of time witnessing to sodomites on another board and in jails. I never dress up sin nor do I ever not offer God's mercy to the sinner. I have had a few change, but to be honest it is very tough to get to people that are involved with that particular sin. Anyway it is tue that sin is sin, but some are just harder to overcome than others.

 

Check your Bible closer - God demonstrated his love for us in that while we were sinners, Christ died for us. God loves sinners, and to take away from that is to miss the entire gospel message.

Perhaps you will have better results if you start loving them instead of being contemptuous toward them.

For an example of what NOT to do (and to see Christians just flat out assaulting unbelievers), go to: www.godhatesfags.com

 

John 8 has been brought up as an example of how Jesus witness. It is important that we remember that Jesus did not victimize those whom He judged.

The account goes that a woman was brought before Jesus for adultery. The crowd wished to stone her. Jesus, stooping to the ground, began to write in the dirt. Nobody knows what He wrote. He told them that he who is without sin should cast the first stone. By saying that, He affirmed the law, which required she be stoned. They all left. The woman was left standing. Jesus, the one person that could throw a stone, pardoned her sin, but He did not acquit her. By saying, "Go and sin no more," He judged her sin, said the crowd's judgment was correct, and told her to live a holy life.

The crowd's judgment was correct. The woman had sinned. However, look at what they did to her. They probably kept her overnight, planning to use her as a test for Jesus' respect for the law. They did not take the man caught with her, as the law required. The had no care for her, no respect for her, and no mercy for her. On the other hand, Jesus cared for her soul. He was merciful to her, and He did not condone her sin.

It is one thing to stand against homosexuality. It is right to evangelize homosexuals. It is right to call their sin what it is, sin, and a sin that carries with it some terrible consequences. However, it is wrong to victimize them.

There are persons on this board whom I have observed in the two weeks I have been here refer to homosexuals as "queers." That's no better than calling a black man a "nigger." Pray tell, how does using such perjorative words help the gospel?

The gospel is not just about sin and redemption at the spiritual level. Certainly that is its primary meaning and application. It all centers on that. However, it is also about respect and dignity for every human being, even the lost, even those that are steeped in sin, and those that are never going to be redeemed.

We are not God. God knows who the elect are, not us. It is true that God will draw the elect to Himself, and, yes I believe that saving grace is irresistible. However, that does not excuse us from treating homosexuals poorly. It does not excuse the fact that by victimizing them, they think we are no better than the those that victimized them in their youth, whether through a parent that could not communicate his love for their son or daughter, whether through being made fun of at school by peers, whether being the victim of sexual crimes, or any other method by which persons are victimized. The truth is that according to every single one of our Christian counselors, including those from the most conservative counseling ministries in the SBC and within the Presbyterian Church (PCA), and including secular psychologists that oppose the APA and the AMA on their stand, homosexual feelings and desires are rooted in those very things. When the see the way we treat them, the way we call them names, the way we set homosexuality apart as a category of sin all to itself, they feel oppressed and victimized. Yes, we do work to reinforce the very things that led them to give up and to do that which God says He hates.

Homosexuality is a personal sin. That is very true. However, it is a SYSTEMIC sin too. It is sad that Christians will demonstrate in the streets against gay pride parades but won't put their signs down to go into the park where they are gathered and witness to them. As I posted in another thread, in SC, a pastor called 10th Ave. Pres. in Philadelphia to ask permission to go evangelize during the gay pride event in his city. Why did he feel the need to do that? Because the Christian leaders in his city had planned a demonstration, but they had created a climate in which pastors, PASTORS, of congregations were frowned upon for not demonstrating and instead witnessing.

Do feelings of victimization and / or oppression excuse the homosexuals' sin? Of course not. Nobody here believes that. Those of you (LadyEagle and massdak) that say I am saying that are simply wrong. I have NEVER said that; you said that. What I said was that those feelings are the feelings from which their sins stem. Therefore, acting like the crowd in John 8 and not Jesus in John 8 only reinforces those feelings of self-hatred and drives them further away from God. In so doing, we contribute to their sin.

The same God that said in the Old Testament, "I hate divorce," is the same God that gave the people of Israel instructions on how to obtain divorces. Clearly, God did not consider doing so an endorsement of divorce, nor did he consider getting a divorce not to be wrong. This pharisaic attitude we have can not be allowed to stand. It is a poison to evangelism and something the people of God will be held accountable for on the Day of Judgment.

It wrong for us not to stand up and say homosexuality is a sin and proclaim the truth about it. It is also wrong to do so in such a way that victimizes the homosexual further. Why? Because that is piling yet another reason for them to sin into their minds. In so doing, yes, we do become complicit in their sin. Why? Because we contribute to the feelings that are driving and motivating them and upon which they are acting out.

LadyEagle, you are correct that Jesus never said we are to walk in their shoes. However, let us not forget that Jesus is fully God and fully man. He did not have to say "walk in their shoes," but He certainly did so every day He was on this earth and He is, right now, in heaven, still fully God and fully man. He is walking in our shoes and ever will be. He is the ultimate example of walking in the shoes of others.

Understanding does not have to mean approval. That is a false leap of logic on your part. (It's called the genetic fallacy of argumentation). Understanding means that we actually learn about homosexuals and homosexuality and act accordingly, as long as what we say and do is in accordance with the truth. Believe it or not, homosexuals have created a cultural identity for themselves in this nation and elsewhere. It is currently a hot topic in missiology, the study of missions. The NAMB would do well to send specific missionaries to gay ghettos. I pray every day that God will do just that in the city of Atlanta.

I posted an analogy in the other thread that said that with regard to homosexuality, there are two extremes in today's church. The conservative sis like the surgeon that hacks away at the patient telling him what a horrible person he is. The liberal does not want to hurt the person at all, so instead he tells him everything is okay.

The truth is that dealing with homosexuals is like heart surgury. You have to be careful, because if you're not you could cut a vital artery and kill the patient. The same is true of many sins. Homosexuals, though most would never admit it directly, are a people in pain who have a lot invested in hiding their pain. That's not an opinion. It's a fact, verified by every ex-gay ministry in this nation, and, yes, LadyEagle, by even the counseling ministry at Calvary Baptist Church in Winston-Salem. We must not contribute to that pain for the reasons I've outlined above.

Does anything I've said blame the church, parents or Christian families? Yes, it does, insofar as we do victimize and oppress homosexuals often, even if it is only perceived. We need to repent with them as well as call them to repent. Does anything I've written excuse the homosexual's sin? No, because homosexual acts are just that, acts, and all behavior carries with it personal responsibility.

The call for the homosexual to repent is good, right, and just. It must be done, even if nobody listens. However, it must not be done without respect for them as individuals and as persons made in God's own image, even if they never listen. If we do that, then we are no better than they. Likewise, there needs to be a call for us to repent of the way we have treated homosexuals too. We must not let the attitude that sets homosexuality apart into its own category stand. That is wrong.

With Dr. Stanton L. Jones, chair of the psychology department of Wheaton College, in an article entitled "The Loving Opposition - Speaking the truth in a climate of hate," Christianity Today, July 19, 1993, I affirm very strongly that homosexual acts are like every other sin. These heinous acts violate God's expressed will and distort God's creational design! The Bible is very clear that God is as sore displeased with greed, pride, spiritual lukewarmness, hate, violence, and disunity, as He is with homosexual behavior and a lack of compassion. There is a whole list of sins which God finds detestable (abominable) in Proverbs 6:16-19. Homosexuality is not mentioned here in Proverbs.

Dr. Jones then says, "We the church have the opportunity to demonstrate, in our words and in our lives, God's love for the homosexual person. If we truly love, we will act on that love. We must start by eradicating our negative responses to homosexual people...must deal with our own emotional reactions...must repudiate violence and intolerance toward persons of homosexual orientation...change the church so that it is a place where those who feel homosexual desire can be welcomed. The church must become a sanctuary where repentant men and women can share with others the sexual desires they feel and still receive prayerful support and acceptance." The church is a place of healing and restoration, not a place where people feel alienated and alone, even in their sin. Sinners must see God reaching out to them, longing to forgive and cleanse once they confess and repent!

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Further, we must speak the truth. If we truly love someone, we will not shrink from speaking God's view of this or any other ungodly behavior. "Compassion in no way entails an acceptance of the gay lifestyle any more than it entails affirming an adulterer's infidelity."

Compassion is so hard! You better believe it! I praise God for it, however! Do I deserve it? NEVER! No one ever deserves it! Yet God mercifully gives it in Christ when He alone is the source, or when some one of his creatures gives it. Even then God is the primary source!

We never compromise God's authoritative Word, rejecting God's view of sexuality and accepting a man-centered view. We have compassion with conviction. Just as we see our Lord Jesus, again and again, chasing down his sinful creatures with loving and open arms while, at the same time saying, "NO!" to our sins.

We all struggle with sin. We need to repent of our arrogance and intolerance of other sinners because we think their sin is worse than ours. We Christians need to become, and be, a community that is known for mercy and compassion. The estranged need to be able to come into our midst and sense that welcoming grace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ! O, Lord Jesus, may it be!
(Rev. Carl C. Derk, Compassion is Hard, copyright HarvestUSA).

For more information go to www.harvestusa.org . There are tons of great articles there about these issues. I stand with them.

For the Calvinists here, they are a ministry of Tenth Ave. Pres in Philadelphia. Donald Grey Barnhouse and James Montgomery Boice were pastors there. Dr. Philip Ryken is currently their pastor. They are not a liberal church at all. HarvestUSA is often called upon to speak against homosexuality and conducts ministry in New York City as well as Philadelphia. They also have a ministry in Chattanooga, TN.

 

Exactly. But it's not necessary to understand.

That statement there is a false leap of logic on your part.

I don't want to understand the homosexual any more than I want to understand the alcoholic or the drug addict, the porno addict, the child molester, the adulterer, the wife beater, the rapist, or a host of other bizarre behaviors and sins. Jesus never told me I have to understand the psychological "whys" or emotional "justifications" for wickedness.

 

Exactly. But it's not necessary to understand.

That statement there is a false leap of logic on your part.

I don't want to understand the homosexual any more than I want to understand the alcoholic or the drug addict, the porno addict, the child molester, the adulterer, the wife beater, the rapist, or a host of other bizarre behaviors and sins. Jesus never told me I have to understand the psychological "whys" or emotional "justifications" for wickedness. </font>[/QUOTE]Then you betray that you are not like Christ. Christ understood people. He made every effort to understand them.

Did you not go through Sharelife training with Dr. corts? These were the very things he taught himself.

 

Sodomy is not a sin. Most married persons engage in sodomy. The only sinful sexual activity is that which is outside the bounds of marriage. I hate to nitpick regarding the use of the word, but it really isn't accurate to the whole scope of the topic.

Your posts indicate that you treat same gender sexual activity as a more severe sin than others. Knowing you from your posts overall, I don't think that's what you truly believe. However, your posts come off that way.

My church has in its pews a few homosexual men who have chosen to refrain from sexual activity. Some days, they tell me, it's a struggle. But they've chosen to remain sexually pure, and their lives are blessed by that. They're still homosexual (because they have the innate desire to form sexual relationships with other men), but they live in abstinence. BTW, groups like Exodus have success rates that are roughly the same as Alcoholics Anonymous.

As a reformed coffee addict, I can attest to that.

 

Scott, It appears to me that you misunderstood what I said. Don't you agree that God will reject those that reject Him? If you do then that is what i was implying. God does not cast just the sin into Hell he cast that God rejecting PERSON into Hell.

Johnv I used the word sodomite because that is what the Bible calls them. I mean nothing by using that term. I just don't use the words the world uses to dress up sin. Nothing is "gay" about sin.

 

I betray that I am not like your social gospel. That has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. Where are the Scriptures that say we must "understand" the sinner? There are none.

massdak had it right in the OP:

You are new to this board, but believe me, those of us who have been here for any length of time have seen and read all the politically correct arguments before from a "Baptist" Reverend who pastors a gay "Baptist" church who used to post here. You can "love" and "understand" someone right into hell.

It must be Baptist Board Deja Vu.

 

Actually, the bible uses the word "sodomite" to refer to either a resident of the city of Sodom, or a temple prostitute (referring to temples of idolatry where sexual acts were often performed as part of worship). It doesn't use the word to refer to a person who has sexual contact with a person of the same gender. Generally, that's a form of fornication.

Not arguing with you, just identifying a point.

I didn't think so. Thank's for clarifying.