Real and perceived reasons

Do you really use the 1611 edition?

Neal

 

How do you know this?? We have already established that God has not told you this. And you have certainly given no credible evidence for you position that this is the only word of God. Are you just making this up because it makes your feel good??

 

I disagree. Just because MVers think KJVOs hold their position because of tradition, it doesn't mean they do. I for one never used the AV before I realised it was the preserved word of God for the English people. First I used the NIV, then the New King James. So why should I "admit" that tradition had its influence? It is obvious that the MVers on this board are totally unwilling to accept that God preserved his word perfectly. So, in order to rationalize why people like me do believe that, they have to blame it on something (otherwise this might seem to suggest that we have more faith in the preserveation of God's word than they do - something they won't accept). And as a result, and because the AV is old, they jump up and say "tradition". But why I should abmit something that is so blatantly unture?

 

The one I was in at the time did not.

I read something similar - it made sense and seemed to fit the facts and the Bible. But at the end of the day, I just decided to put my faith in God's preserved word. Since then I read (in the Bible and elsewhere), and thought, much more about it, and this only cemented what I had previously believed.

No. But every time I think about an idea I try my best to check it out with the Bible.

No.

 

I think vanity is what you’re all about Larry, just as every man, even at his best state. I know your mind is closed to this issue, but for those interested, please do a search on the word “vanity” as used in the KJB and compare it to how the MVs have taken the root words and destroyed the impact of these verses in the Bible. I am making no attempt to confuse, but rather to enlighten. Please quit judging my motives Larry.

I agree that it is a great example, but not of nothing as you stated. We are clearly experiencing an imitation Christianity today, and it is very telling the use of this word in the MVs. We are not told to imitate or mimic in the word of God, we are commanded to internalize the essence of Christ once we are born of the spirit. Only then can we be led by His word and prayerful guidance. Again, you provide a technical, but not a spiritual reply.

Why does someone not share a newspaper with someone who cannot see? I don’t mean this to be harsh, but we have had many encounters here, you will not change your mind, so why tempt me. If the KJB is attacked as it was in this thread (“fetched a compass”) for outdated language, I will show as I have time and time again that the language of the KJB is more accurate and up-to-date than the MVs, as I have shown in my prior post. If someone makes an illogical post that is one-sided and condemning of only the KJB, I will bring some balance.

The reason is spirituality. The KJB is not obsolete by any stretch of the imagination, it is the most current and up-to-date Bible on the market. Do you “follow” what I’m saying?

I think God has this verse just like He wants it. It sure does expose the gnat strainers. This is kind of like Jesus calling Mary “woman”. That one is for our Catholic friends. You guys just keep straining “at” those gnats, and swallowing that camel of 10,000 changes to the Greek NT.

I’m not trying to be harsh with you Larry, but your presentation of fact is grossly lopsided. Archaic words are gnats compared with the conveyance of deeper meanings (camels) that the KJB does in a way no other Bible on earth ever has. The KJB (God’s words preserved in English) is often “imitated”, but never “followed”.

 

Then enlighten us as to what you think "vanity" is. I told you what it was. I showed you from the context of the verse what it meant. You see, I use Scripture when I make a point. You don't. My mind is not closed to this issue. I am willing to believe whatever you will show me from Scripture. That is because Scripture is my authority.

]So now I am not spiritual because you have bad exegetical skills??? How does that work??? How is it that the person who knows what the text says is the one who is technical but not spiritual?? We are told to imitate in the word of God. That is what this verse says. Your own lack of knowledge does not change God's word. You need to accept that point.

This paragraph means "I can't show you from Scripture so I will just complain about you." That is wrong and you know it. You know good and well that you can offer no biblical proof that I am wrong. The KJV was not attackedin this thread. You have not shown one place where Scripture supports. We have had encounters and everyone has ended the same: I give facts and you have no rebuttal to them. You bring no Scripture into the discussion. It is sad, truly sad, that someone who claims to believe the word of God will not use it to support his position.

I follow you reasoning. It is just bad reasoning. I did not say that KJV was obsolete. However you are kidding yourself if you think it is the most up to date and current Bible on the market. You are simply living with your head in the sand. The reason here is not spirituality. That has been addressed many times. INability to understand a language is not a lack of spirituality. You don't understand Greek (if I remember correctly); does that make you unspiritual? By your definition, you are unspiritual.

Of course God's wants verses like this; he is the one who put it there. But that does not give you the right to mistranslate God's word. You are the one in error; not God's word.

You are not harsh; you are not even right. You are so unfamiliar with the truth about God's word you can't see the facts. You have yet to show even one time that I have lied or misrepresented the truth about this. You are so devoted to following the teachings of mere man that your vision is clouded beyond reason. Open your eyes and your mind and put aside the teachings of men. Follow the word of God; that will keep you from this type of ridiculous post.

 

What you are when you’re at your very best. You know, when you’re proving how the KJB is not a good recommendation for young converts because of your advanced knowledge on the subject.

You’re twisting my words to inflame the discussion. I did not say that “Pastor Larry is not spiritual”. One could take that as an implication from my statement, but I do not know you well enough to make such a blanket condemnation. I would say that your spiritually is often subject to your vanity, just as is mine. One can be completely technically correct about scripture, but still be wrong spiritually. Do you need examples of this?

My knowledge is not lacking, your viewpoint is just extremely narrow. The KJB make better spiritual application of words, based on present day definitions, in a whole host of cases, two of which I presented. You will not admit this though because you are so adamantly against the KJB.

Here you are at your best state again. “I give facts and you have no rebuttal to them”. I have very good rebuttals to your arguments. Just because you or someone else holds the opinion that I do not, this does not make it fact.

No need for insults, my head is not in the sand. I’m just open to the fact that the KJB is worded very powerfully, and MVs are not. I agree there are some archaic words, but archaic words do not keep it from being up-to-date. The powerful conveyance of God’s holy words keeps it far ahead of the MVs. From this perspective, MVs are still not up-to-date.

The English of the KJB is easier to understand today than it was 200 years ago. With advances in education and information technology, it is more understandable than ever. How someone can rest on this excuse is beyond me. This argument you have about obsolete language form is a poor one. You really should reconsider this.

Most of these remarks are demeaning and inflammatory. Really, I don’t want to turn this thread into an insult contest. I am not accusing you of lying. I contend your presentation of the facts are biased and misleading, but not because you are intentionally lying or trying to inflict damage out of malice or contempt. I am simply contending that the language of the KJB is not what you make it out to be.

I have considered your arguments, and those on your side, but find the language form arguments biased and not compelling. The KJB is not only not outdated or obsolete; it is wonderful masterpiece of literary style and prose. It’s language form is God honoring, as was the intent of the language’s use when it was created. It is the only Bible I recommend to new converts because it is more up-to-date than any Bible on the market, archaic words and all.

 

I rely on what God shows me through the Scriptures(AV): John 16:13,1st Corinthians 2:9,10,Psalms 25:5,and Proverbs 22:17:21.I will be away from the board for a good while,and if by chance 1st Corinthians 15:52 does not happen(which I hope DOES happen SOON!)I will return;but if it does happen before I get to return here,to all the folks I've debated over the KJB,I'll see you when 2 Corinthians 5:10 happens.I bid all Auf Wiedersehen! (For now)

 

What version are you reading those verses in? In my KJV (and every other version I know of), none of those verses mention the KJV.

 

Then this shows that you are not interested in the meaning of the words God used. That is not what "hebel" means in this passage. “Vanity” is a reference to the length of man’s life, as is clear to those who read the verse in which this phrase is found.

I am not proving anything about the KJB. That doesn’t even exist. It is the KJV and it is not a good recommendation for young converts because of problems like this one. People don’t know what the words mean. It is, as you say, a fine translation and a literary masterpiece. But in a modern world, we need a God who speaks to the people of today in the language they use. There is no biblical reason why we should not have that.

Your knowledge is lacking and you have demonstrated that for us. Your protestations to the contrary will not fool us. I will admit whatever you can show me from Scripture. As it is, anything you have given has been simply your opinion. That is what is frustrating to me. You want to tell me authoritatively I am wrong but your authority does not come from a valid source (i.e., God). It comes from your own mind.

Then put them forth here. Quit this messing around and stop repeating the same old tripe that we have seen hundreds of times before. Give us your “very good rebuttals.”

The first is true; the second is not. I have seen God’s power more since I started using an MV than I ever did when I used the KJV. The proof is, as they say, in the pudding. The pudding shows that the MVs are the word of God and no amount of your obfuscation will change this.

It is not poor. It has been shown time and time again. I think I mentioned that a man from a KJV Only background has been visiting my church. He told me last week when I was at his house that he was amazed in reading along in the KJV while I read the NASB aloud. He was amazed at how easy the NASB was to understand and how it clarified the KJV. This is the proof that even those who have grown up on the KJV do not readily understand it. One of the problems he had with our church when he and his family started attending was this issue. But over time, he has come to realize the fallacy of everything that he was taught, not because he and I have talked about the technicalities of it, but because he has seen the power in action.

The remarks here are not inflammatory and demeaning. They are true and you have shown us that time and time again. You have shown only the ideas and opinions of men for support.

I realize that I am playing hardball and speaking very directly. But I am doing it on purpose. I am tired of the people of God being mislead, even if it is by well meaning people. I am tired of kind of things that are being said about God’s word. You can contend all you want about my presentation, but until you show some facts where I have mislead or lied, then you will have nothing but your opinion, an opinion that has no authority for anyone but you.

What I have consistently tried to do is focus this discussion on the mandates of God’s word. But I can get no help from you or anyone on your side. You simply will not show us where God teaches what you teach. You will not offer us Scripture on the matter. You will only offer us your opinions and the ideas of men. If you choose to believe that the KJV is the best translation for you, then so be it. I have no problem with that. But do not come in here and try to force your own brand of spirituality on others when God has a different set of standards than you do. It is time for us to get back to the authority of the Word of God, not the authority of men’s ideas.

 

Well DUH!!!! This is what you ASKED:

I believe you need to learn English all over again;read what you originaly asked *CAREFULY* before you post. You asked: "What *do* you rely on to KNOW what the word of God is (KJB 1611 AV)?"
Are you saying God wont show his children what is truth? Hey JYD I'll be there!!!

 

[Istherenotacause said:

I sure am glad I don't have to rely on a poll to KNOW what the Word of God is! KJB 1611 AV

I sure am glad I don't have to listen to the KJV-onlyists who spread unbelief by telling me my NASB isn't the pure Word of God.

 

I believe you need to learn English all over again;read what you originaly asked *CAREFULY* before you post....Are you saying God wont show his children what is truth?
</font>[/QUOTE]No, I'm not saying that, but good try. But if that's what God told him through those scriptures, why would God tell someone else (living in 1605, for example ) something contrary through the same scriptures? Who is confused: God or JYD?

 

Are you saying that God 'fixed' His Word in time with the KJV and now is providentially guiding language changes in order to deliver advanced revelations? That seems to be the thrust of your comments here saying that the KJV is up-to-date while MV's are not.

So in other words, as language changes, the meaning of God's Word changes irrespective of what was meant by the words He originally inspired?

You seem to assign authority to the words of the KJV rather than the message it presents (and presented more clearly in the past). It appears that even God didn't attach this value to exact words since the exact wording of the inspired originals has been lost but the preservation of the message/substance can be proven.

 

Let's start wrapping this up. 24 hour notice is in place.

[ June 11, 2003, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: TomVols ]

 

God has shown me unequivocally that the NASB and NIV are the word of God. I have it on God's authority that I am right. Therefore, you are wrong. I believe God does want his children to know the truth. So all you need to do is open your eyes and accept it.