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Real Gospel or Pseudo-Gospel?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Mike Gascoigne, Jul 30, 2003.

  1. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

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    Paul,

    This would mean that Adam and Eve are in the garden, full of the bones of their dead ancestors, and the Lord tells them not to eat the forbidden fruit, otherwise they will die. Then they say "That's OK, we are going to die anyway, everybody dies", and they take the forbidden fruit. It's a different story from what we have in Genesis, don't you think?

    Mike
    </font>[/QUOTE]???? You think this scenario gave Satan an unfair advantage tempting the pair??? :D

    I still say it comes down to evidence. You don't think the evidence for evolution is compelling; I do; and thats why we approach it differently.
     
  2. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Joshua how can you live in Georgia, 'preach' that and not be stoned? Myths in Genesis! [​IMG] Saggy, where did you put that bat? ;)

    I submit:

    Ge 1:4
    And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.

    Ge 1:10
    And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

    Ge 1:12
    And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

    Ge 1:18
    and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

    Ge 1:21
    So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

    Ge 1:25
    And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

    Ge 1:31
    Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    Diane [​IMG]
     
  3. NeilUnreal

    NeilUnreal New Member

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    What's wrong with that? It's something we all do all of lives, either consciously or subconsciously.

    I don't want to get off the hook. I want to learn about the world and come to understand it better and better. A lot of Christians who were present at the foundations of modern geology and biology felt the same way. Much of what we call evolution and old earth evidence comes from Christians who didn't just want to get off the hook. However, so do things like the germ theory of disease and electronics. Science is not some special means of knowing; it's just a way of systematizing and objectifying the search for factual truth. If you decide to leave one science behind, you start down a path that leads to the rejection of all science.

    We have to play the hand we're dealt. My decision to believe in mainstream theories of evolution, etc., is the result of considering as much of the evidence as I could. This includes mainstream theories, but also YEC, OEC, and everything in-between. I'd be telling a bald-faced lie if I said I think any other theories than mainstream science come anywhere near explaining the evidence we see. Those theories may change, but for now they're the best we've got.

    It has been a challenge theologically. But after all, a theology that can't change is really just an idolatry.

    -Neil
     
  4. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    (Jesus said) “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ (Mark 10:6)

    For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. (Romans 1:21-23)

    Evolutionists "exchange the glory of the immortal God," that He could create ex nihilo (out of nothing), a complex ecosphere like we witness today, with the "image" of Darwinism! :(
     
  5. Mike Gascoigne

    Mike Gascoigne <img src=/mike.jpg>

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    Joshua,

    Now at last I'm beginning to hear something about the evolutionist doctrine of sin and death. It starts with something like:

    "In the beginning there was death".

    Can you tell me what happens next? I'm still waiting... [​IMG]

    Mike
     
  6. Mike Gascoigne

    Mike Gascoigne <img src=/mike.jpg>

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    ???? You think this scenario gave Satan an unfair advantage tempting the pair??? :D
    </font>[/QUOTE]Paul,

    I think it dispenses with the need for Satan altogether. Adam and Eve would have made up their own minds that God is talking rubbish, without any help from Satan.

    The same scenario would have continued throughout history. If God created a world that was already corrupted by death and decay, and then placed humans in it and expected them to live perfect lives without a single act of disobedience, would we not feel justified in thinking that God is being unreasonable? There would be no need for Satan to tempt us into disobedience, so another Christian doctrine goes down the drain.

    Mike
     
  7. Mike Gascoigne

    Mike Gascoigne <img src=/mike.jpg>

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    But Paul might have wanted to get off the hook, and there might be others who are so confused about evolutionist Christian theology, they are thinking of abandoning Christianity altogether.

    If we can't convince these people that evolution is wrong, we shouldn't just say goodbye to them. The least we can do is offer them a third way, and suggest that they become agnostics in the creation/evolution debate. This will at least keep them in the church, and in time they might find creationist arguments that they can agree with.

    I'm not suggesting that Paul is about to quit, but there are many who already have done.

    Mike
     
  8. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    Boy, aint that the truth! Some of ‘em put so much faith in evolution science that they’re about one scientific discovery away from abandoning Christianity altogether.
     
  9. Mike Gascoigne

    Mike Gascoigne <img src=/mike.jpg>

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    Boy, aint that the truth! Some of ‘em put so much faith in evolution science that they’re about one scientific discovery away from abandoning Christianity altogether. </font>[/QUOTE]Charles Templeton, a contemporary of Billy Graham, is probably the most spectacular casualty of evolution.

    See "The Slippery Slide to Unbelief"
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v22n3_Templeton.asp

    Followed by "Death of an Apostate"
    http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v25n1_editorial.asp

    Mike
     
  10. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Mike,

    Either God is in control of the world or God is not.

    If God is in control of the world, then God chose to make it in such a way that death would enter into it.

    Whether that happened in a mythical garden with a talking snake or at the moment of creation, it's still where we are now.

    Joshua
     
  11. Artimaeus

    Artimaeus Active Member

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    Real Gospel = You've fallen and you can't get up by yourself, let me help you.

    Signed Jesus
    ----------------------------------------------------

    Pseudo Gospel = You didn't fall down, the world increased in height, let me help you adjust with an enlightened and significantly improved interpersonal relationship dynamic.

    Signed Rev Joshua.
     
  12. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Here's my favorite quote from Charles Templeton:

    In context, he said: "He's the most important thing in my life. I know it may sound strange, but I have to say... I adore him! Everything good I know, everything decent I know, everything pure I know, I learned from Jesus. Just look at Jesus. He castigated people. He was angry. People don't think of him that way, but they don't read the Bible. He had a righteous anger. He cared for the oppressed and exploited. There's no question that he had the highest moral standard, the least duplicity, the greatest compassion, of any human being in history. There have been many other wonderful people, but Jesus is Jesus..... I miss Him! "

    The Case for Faith; An Author investigates the Toughest Objections to Christianity: Lee Strobel

    I cry everytime I read that passage. I cannot imagine living my life without My Jesus...
    Diane
     
  13. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    There’s no question about it. God is in control. God knew from the beginning of time that man would sin against Him and will need a savior in His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:19-20)

    Why do we still have children, when we know from the first day they were born they will disobey us? My answer is, IMO, the same as our Lord, to have fellowship with, to teach, to LOVE and to pass on our moral values.
     
  14. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Artimaeus, Are you deliberately misquoting me to be insulting or are you just incapable of understanding my point (assuming you read what I wrote in full about the nature of sin and salvation)?

    Perhaps you missed it when I wrote this:

    Joshua
     
  15. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

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    That's a lot of deduction there without anything to back it up. For non-spiritual beings, death is as natural as life. Even today, we don't generally believe the animals die and go to heaven! Certainly God would have communicated the idea to Adam and Eve they were different, immortal, and so forth.

    But this idea of doing away with a literal Satan - hmmmm you might have something there. Do you think I should? :rolleyes:

    I mean, you've been kind enough to suggest to me already a few directions my knowledge should take me - should I abandon Christianity? Should I stop my life-long practice of tithing to my church, since it doesn't matter?

    Bear in mind that I know that evolution is true just as surely as you know that insects don't have just four legs.

    On the other hand, I remain convinced that Jesus is my Savior and Lord.
     
  16. Mike Gascoigne

    Mike Gascoigne <img src=/mike.jpg>

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    This thread has run into four pages and I still haven't heard the elusive evolutionist doctrine of death before sin. I'm still waiting... [​IMG]

    There are many evangelical churches, including many Baptist churches, where the pastor, the elders and the deacons all believe in evolution. But they won't say so, and if you ask them they will try to dodge the issue because they know it causes theological problems.

    There are just a few tell-tale signs that there is something wrong. There are no creationist books on the bookstall. They preach a message that is ever-so-slightly different from what you would expect to hear. The words "sin" and "death" never appear in the same sentence. If sin is mentioned, it's in the context of messing up our lives. Salvation is some kind of fix that meets our present-day needs, but it isn't eternal life.

    I think these churches need a health warning. There needs to be a big sign outside saying DANGER - EVOLUTIONIST CHURCH.

    There are many people in these churches who think they are saved, but they are not saved, because they have never been taught about sin and death, and therefore they cannot know about grace and salvation. They have been given a sedative that knocks them out and prevents them from hearing the real gospel, so they are just where the devil wants them.

    Mike
     
  17. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

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    OK here it is. The elusive evolutionist doctrine of death before Adam.

    Animal and plant death don't count.

    Any questions?
     
  18. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Mike,

    Maybe I'm not speaking clearly enough.

    Sin is an intrinsic component of mortality. You make a world that's mortal, it will have sin in it. When the first microbe died, there was sin in the world.

    Grace is the merciful reunion of the broken creation with the holy Creator through the sacrifice of Jesus (God in the flesh). That's the gospel, and I preach it while still believing in evolution.

    Joshua

    P.S. If your argument is that God couldn't create a world in which a microbe would die, your ignoring the fact that even young-earth creationists believe that God created a world in which people could die.

    P.P.S. Paul and I posted at the same time, but we obviously have opposite views. We're animals as well, and our deaths count [​IMG] .
     
  19. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Mike,

    You want a theistic evolutionist take on sin and death?

    1. Animals and plants are not spiritually alive. They die natural deaths.

    2. We are in the image of God and are both physically and spiritually alive

    3. We all however sin

    4. This causes us all to die not just physically but spiritually and eternally.

    5. Jesus, however, by His cross and resurrection, offers all of us the opportunity by acccepting Him as Lord and Saviour to live eternally spiritually and - through the resurrection of the dead - ultimately physically too.

    There you are. Clear enough?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  20. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    Psst…hey Matt, Mike is asking for an evolutionist doctrine concerning death BEFORE sin.
     
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