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Reasons one cannot pastor a church

Discussion in 'Polls Forum' started by fortytworc, Apr 4, 2012.

?
  1. Divorce/ even before salvation

    62.5%
  2. Re marriage after a divorce/even before salvation

    68.8%
  3. Not having his house in order/can you explain what this means?

    68.8%
  4. Is not a good teacher

    50.0%
  5. Can't control anger

    87.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    That is correct. And let me add that all sin has consequences, even after forgiveness is extended. And the consequence of divorce is loss of being qualified to hold a leadership position in the church.

    John
     
  2. JeepDawg

    JeepDawg New Member

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    I absolutely agree.

    Matthew 5:32 was the verse that changed my mind on this. This is a real dividing argument in my church right now, so I am reading all of this with great interest.

    I have yet to read anything that sways me, as I have yet to see any one support the "divorced preachers are okay" position with any scripture. With emotion, yes, with scripture, no. If I only follow my human emotions, then I can rationalize any sin I want to indulge in.
     
  3. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    See, the issue is that you can't say that a pastor who was once divorced can never pastor again. It is just not in the Scriptures.
     
  4. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    Ann, how else would a man have more than one wife?

    A widowed man would be the exception because no sin was involved in him losing his wife.

    Respectfully Ann, man's forgiveness and acceptance of past sins is secondary to God's instructions.

    If I am reading His instructions wrong then would you please explain what "husband of one wife" means?

    john
     
  5. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Let's take a look at the qualities:

    blameless: I don't believe this is blameless for life or sinlessly perfect but instead would be one who could stand up to critique for where they are today and where they've been. If we say that this rules out someone who was divorced, we also must include someone who was a drunkard, a law breaker (our senior pastor was jailed numerous times as a young man before he was saved) or any other sin you want to name.

    the husband of one wife: Another way of saying this is "one woman man". A man who is divorced no longer has a wife. Legally he doesn't and since Jesus told the woman at the well that she has HAD 5 husbands, we can see that He doesn't say that she now has 5 husbands but it is past. We need to look at the man's heart - has he been faithfully married and proven himself in that regard? I'd say that our pastor who was once divorced but has now married for over 30 years to his wife is definitely the "husband of one wife".

    vigilant - This would be someone who is not a slacker but is proactive, being on watch for what is going on around him.

    sober - Not just for alcohol but I'd say that this is a heart state - one who has clear thinking, is not just a jokester but can get down to business and knows when things are serious.

    of good behavior - Again, if we were to look through a man's whole life, I would think that we would find every one would have a time of bad behavior so we need to see where one is now in the context of their lives. Not just today but have they proven to be of good behavior in their walk with the Lord in the years that mattered - the years that lead up to today.

    given to hospitality - This is one who keeps his home open, is generous with his time for people and is willing to use his personal life to minister to others. I've seen pastors who don't want to do visitation or to have people in their home - that is a big red flag to me. It is important to see a man in his home and with his family and I think this attribute covers that.

    apt to teach - This is a given IMO. If a man can't teach well, he should be in administration and not the pulpit. It is the preaching of the Word that is the center of the modern worship service and there is nothing worse than bad teaching.
     
  6. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    Ann, if it meant a "one woman man" then why didnt Paul use the term 'adulterer"?

    After all if you cheat on your one woman, then you are an adulterer. And, if you have more than one "woman" then at least one of them isnt your wife.

    So, by your logic a man can be married to just one woman, but mess around with many that are not his wife, and still be a pastor.

    No, one wife means one wife. Period.

    John

    John
     
  7. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    Ann, you made this statement:

    "the husband of one wife: Another way of saying this is "one woman man". A man who is divorced no longer has a wife. Legally he doesn't and since Jesus told the woman at the well that she has HAD 5 husbands, we can see that He doesn't say that she now has 5 husbands but it is past. We need to look at the man's heart - has he been faithfully married and proven himself in that regard? I'd say that our pastor who was once divorced but has now married for over 30 years to his wife is definitely the "husband of one wife"."


    How do you explain:

    Mar 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder

    Does the legality of man's law over ride God's commandment here?

    John
     
  8. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    > Jesus told the woman at the well that she has HAD 5 husbands, we can see that He doesn't say that she now has 5 husbands but it is past.

    I find it interesting that her present room mate is not referred to in any other context. Someplace else Jesus infers that the state of being married is produced by the sex act. His context is the results of prostitution.
     
  9. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    >Polygamy is not an option because it was against the law under the Roman Empire.

    I think this only applied to Roman citizens, a "status" crime. In the same way that in the US polygamy is basically a tax crime? Why do I say that? Because having more than one official wife would mess with the tax code and THAT is the most serious crime in the US.

    We don't prosecute people for having/sleeping with multiple girlfriends/boyfriends. In the US, "married" is a tax code word and has lost its social connotation in the same way that "gay" no longer means "happy."
     
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    That Scripture doesn't say that a divorced man still has a wife, does it? If Jesus had said to the woman "Even now you have 5 husbands", then I think we can say that a divorced person still has a husband/wife. But He didn't.
     
  11. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Here is the passage:

    Matthew 19:5-6 "And said , For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

    Is this just speaking of the sex act? I don't think so. Under the law, if a man raped a woman, he would then have to marry her. He wasn't automatically married to her but would have to actually do a further act to be married. So I'd say that it is more than just the act that makes one a husband.
     
  12. fortytworc

    fortytworc Member

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    It seems to me that the place to start is with a plain, simple initial first reading of scripture. The first best approach would be as if I had never read it previously. This can be difficult. Even with the difficulty at least try to keep in mind that just because any reading of scripture may raise questions doesn't mean we have to leave behind "What does this verse or passage plainly say? (before I mess with it.) It has already been said " these verses do not mention divorce." Is there any reason to read divorce into them other than we have already read divorce into them?
     
  13. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    Ann, pastor's must meet God's quailifications not man's. I know you are defending your friend's position as a pastor, but our opinion of someone does not supercede God's laws.

    Like me, the man has had two wives, both are living, and he should not be a church leader according to 1 Timothy.

    There is no legitimate way to rationalize or twist the scripture to justify skirting around it. The scripture is pretty clear.

    I am sorry, but in this case I believe that, according to scripture, you, your church and the pastor are wrong.

    John
     
  14. fortytworc

    fortytworc Member

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    John 14:16 "Jesus said to her, Go, call your husband and come here.
    17 The woman answered and said, I Have NO husband. Jesus said to her, You Have WELL said, I have no husband
    18 for you Have Had five husbands, and [he] whom you now have is not your husband. In that You Spoke TRULY." Emphasis mine. Plain and simple reading on how Jesus viewed her marital state.
     
  15. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    See, that really speaks volumes to me.

    Yes, this pastor has HAD two wives but he is the husband of one and his heart is singularly in love with his wife and he has proven himself for over 30 years. I think that's proof enough. He's more of a "husband to one wife" than some that have had only one wife!
     
  16. JeepDawg

    JeepDawg New Member

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    I don't see the Bible being ambiguous on this. I don't see this as a "One woman man" issue or a forgiveness issue. It seems cut & dry to me. You have more than one wife-and I see that as all inclusive, no divorce, no extra wives-, you can't pastor. Pointing out what the Bible doesn't say doesn't cut it.

    I wish it did.

    We cannot bend the Bible to suit our will. We have to bend our lives to try and fit the Bible. I can't follow a Pastor who tries to justify certain sins because he is guilty of them.
     
  17. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    But Jesus saw it differently. The woman did not have more than one husband. She HAD 5 different husbands - and Jesus agreed that she had no husband. So you saying that one who is divorced and remarried has more than one wife contradicts what He said.
     
  18. fortytworc

    fortytworc Member

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    I mean no disrespect, but when you
    1.] Have Jesus agreeing with the woman (who had had five husbands) that she spoke the truth when she said she now has no husband because they had Not Been Married Yet, as would be the case if she were alive and divorced today
    2.] Have Jesus not considering the man she was living with at the time to be a husband because they had Not Been Married Yet
    3.] Have no proof texts using any terms connected with divorce
    4.] Have the use of scripture ONLY presented in defense of a position
    5.] Have to add words and terms to scripture (such as:You have more than one wife; no divorce, no extra wives-, you can't pastor
    6.] Have totally subjective terms used as support ( I don't see the Bible....on this. I don't see this as....It seems cut & dry...I see that as...
    I would have to say that the simple plain reading with no preconceptions would have the stronger foundation.
    I have nothing against using opinions and other words... We could not communicate or explain things and positions otherwise. My problem with it at this time is that there is scripture that can stand alone to present the opposing view.
    One other thing...when you say "Pointing out what the Bible doesn't say doesn't cut it." This hands a blank check to all kinds of , well just about anything to be part of a fill-in-the-blank belief.
     
  19. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    Ann

    The woman at the well was not holding or seeking the office of a pastor or elder.

    John
     
  20. fortytworc

    fortytworc Member

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    The woman at the well was not seeking anything. Jesus sought her out. By the way; She would've been in the group of ostracized people like divorced pastors (ex-Pastors),people with "unruly, rebellious" kids people struggling with problems they dare not mention because of the way the body has treated such 'sheep by the wayside.'
     
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