Reasons why the Bible teaches a Pretribulational rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Aug 7, 2014.

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  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
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    Many here disagree with the Pretrib position, and instead hold to other views that are not consistent with scripture. I am not sure how one can come to such conclusions, and my only guess is not enough Bible study. Anyways here are some defenses.

    Christ can come at anytime or any moment and thats exactly what these verses teach, especially John 14:3, 1 Thes 4:17. Caught up as mentioned in 1 Thes 4:17 is a translation of the greek word harpaco which means "snatched up." How anyone can interpret the Bible and disagree wit the Pretrib and Premillennial interpretation is beyond me especially considering these facts.

    -28% of the Bible is Prophecy
    -There are FIVE TIMES more prophecies concerning Christ's second coming than his 1st coming.

    Christ came the first time and is GUARANTEED to Return again, so we all need to be ready for the rapture is coming!!!

    -23/27 NT books speak of the certainty of Christ's return...

    Lets park here. While I love Calvinism and Reformed theology and think it is correct in MOST areas I have noticed that they do not take Bible prophecy seriously nor speak on it often. Also their prophecy commentaries rarely agree with one another. Dispensationalists agree with each other in general.

    - 2 Thes 2:1-12 presents the end times in Biblical order
    -The rapture is imminent and could happen at anytime.
    - The bible has at least 325 prophecies concerning Christ's 2nd coming

    So what do you say given the above defenses of the pretribulational rapture of the church?
     
  2. JonC

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    I don't see how those verses are a defense of a pre-trib rapture...although I do believe in a pre-trib rapture.
     
  3. OldRegular

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    Not a single verse you quoted supports a pre=trib removal of the Church. In truth there is not a single verse in Scripture that supports a pre-trib removal of the Church.
     
  4. convicted1

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    Those verses only prove Christ's return. They don't support pre, mid, post-trib raptures, imo...
     
  5. go2church

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    If God has predestined salvation as Calvinism teaches and all believers are going to be snatched up as Dispensationalism teaches, why bother with evangelism at all? Because Jesus said so, being obedient you say? How is that not God just giving out busy work to the saved?
     
  6. beameup

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    1 Thess 4:13-18 is pretty clear. The Holy Spirit put key "clues" in this section,
    emphasizing meeting the Lord Jesus "in the clouds" and NOT upon the surface of the earth.
    Clearly this is not "the second coming". He would not "have us ignorant".
     
  7. evangelist6589

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    Did you read them carefully?
     
  8. evangelist6589

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    Do you have a bias or have you actually studied this out?
     
  9. evangelist6589

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    Re-read them
     
  10. Winman

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    That's not how it works John. Take ANY of those verses you posted, and explain exactly how they support a Pre-Trib rapture.

    I don't think you have a clue, you just believe what others tell you.

    I will show you a verse that refutes a Pre-Trib rapture.

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    These verses say AFTER the tribulation the sun will be darkened and the moon turned to blood, and the stars will fall, and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see Jesus coming in the clouds.

    Now you show ANY verse that says Jesus will come before the tribulation.

    You would be a lot more credible if you had a clue what you were talking about. You don't.
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    Most of your so called prophecies were already fulfilled by 70 ad.....so what you think are great verses looking forward...were already fulfilled.

    You say they do not take it seriously...but ignore the writings themselves.


    paul tells them about events they were already aware of at that time.....make a list of your verses and ask yourself....could that actually have been understood as being fulfilled as a Coming in judgement.....in 70 ad....you will find the answer is yes.
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    All who answer you...know your position already....and have moved away from it because they have studied it out.....it is you that have not studied it out, and think everyone else has not heard these things .
     
  13. OldRegular

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    If you can show how each verse you posted proves a pre-tribulation removal of the Church then do so. Otherwise convicted1 is correct. In fact the passage from John 14 could have reference to the death of His Saints and their going to join Jesus Christ in heaven.
     
    #13 OldRegular, Aug 7, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 7, 2014
  14. DHK

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    I agree.
    Good stuff. Let's look at the Scripture.

    Jesus was talking to His disciples. He was comforting them. They were in the Upper Room and He was telling them, not only that he was about to leave them but also that He was going to the cross. They don't leave here until John 18:1, and go across the brook Cedron.
    The sense here is that they will have a place in heaven. They are eternally secure. He does not give the timing of his coming here.
    This is definitely the rapture. Why? It happens at our resurrection, the resurrection of the righteous which takes place before The Tribulation. This is when our bodies will be transformed as the verse says. It is premill. It is also pre-trib. He comes for his own before the Tribulation.
    --"by our gathering unto him."
    Certainly sounds like the rapture.
    Yes, indeed. We are waiting for his coming, the resurrection, which is the rapture.
    When his coming and our resurrection are taking place simultaneously we know it is at the time of the rapture.
    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    --We shall see him as he is. It is the rapture.
    The clearest passage yet on the rapture.
    Note how he comes to the clouds and not to the earth.
    Note how the resurrection takes place here.
    First, the dead in Christ rise first, and then we which are alive rise to meet him in the air.
    This does not take place when Christ comes in his glory with His holy angels, an event described in 2Thes.1:7-9. The two passages cannot be reconciled into one event--impossible.
     
  15. JamesL

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    Yes, those two passages can be reconciled into one event - a PostTrib catching away to "meet" Him.

    PreTrib common taters speak as if the catching away means going to heaven. But I think it can only be understood in light of the "meeting" - apantesin.

    Used only 3 times in the NT, this "meeting" is a fairly technical word relating to going to meet a dignitary who was approaching a city, and usher him in with a caravan of greeters.

    Just like in Matt 25:6 the groom came, and the maids went out to meet Him. Then verse 10 says they went in with Him.

    Also in Acts 28:15, when Paul went to Rome. As he approached, many believers came to meet him. Then they went into Rome.

    Apantesin simply does not fit a PreTrib rapture. It does not convey the idea that the greeting party was taken to where the dignitary came from. They went "out" to meet, as the dignitary was approaching to come in.

    Trying to press a PreTrib view onto this word would have Christ and His resurrected saints hanging around in the clouds for 7 years. Because one thing is for sure with this word - the dignitary is not the one who did the u-turn. The greeting party did the u-turn.

    We will go into the clouds to meet Him, at the end of the Tribulation, and come right back in with Him.

    Also, a PreTrib e "escape" would remove the believer from the very thing he's been called to do (1Peter 2:21)
     
  16. DHK

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    You sound confused.
    1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

    This verse has nothing to do with "The Tribulation," nothing to do with the rapture, and nothing to do with the second coming. It is totally irrelevant to the entire thread.
    "The Tribulation" is God's wrath poured out on the earth AGAINST the ungodly! The Tribulation is not God's wrath against Christians.
    Take a look at just one scene:
    Revelation 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
    9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
    --Does that sound like Christians to you? The sun affects the entire world. This is God's wrath poured out against the earth; against the unbelievers. The believers will not be there. They will have been raptured, as 1Thes.4:16ff so aptly describes.

    Secondly, there needs to be time for the marriage of the Lamb, and the wedding feast. That takes place in heaven during the Tribulation.
    Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
    8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

    Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

    Third, there has to be time for the Judgment Seat of Christ, which takes place during the same time (1Cor.3:11-15).

    Fourth, at the Second Coming, after seven years of Tribulation, it is we, the saints in heaven that come back with Christ in our glorified bodies to reign with him.
    Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    --The armies are not just angels, though no doubt include angels.
    Those that are clothed in fine linen, white and clean, are the saints, the bride of Christ, who will come with Christ, and then reign with him.
     
  17. JamesL

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    You only think I'm confused because you don't understand.

    Those He foreknew (as adopted sons), He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (through suffering). Those He predestined, He CALLED (to suffer). Those He called, He justified. Those He justified, He also glorified (adopted)

    I know. You don't see the connection. Ask and it shall be given. Seek and you will find.


    First, you were talking about how 2Thess 1:7-9 mentions Christ coming in glory with His angels, and how it is impossible for the resurrection to be at the same time. I showed you how, and now you're finished with those passages? It's no wonder so many of these threads go down so many rabbit trails. You need to learn to focus.

    But, since we're just haphazardly jumping around from one topic to another (desultory conversation, apparently).....

    You seem to think that wrath and tribulation are the same thing. I don't know why.

    Tribulation is from the evil one(s) toward the saints

    Wrath is from God toward the evil one(s)


    You got the wrath part, but you missed the tribulation. Daniel 7:

    19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,

    20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.

    21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them

    22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

    23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.

    24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.

    25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

    26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.

    27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’


    Revelation 13:7

    It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.



    Also, the resurrection is at the END of the Tribulation, not the beginning. Revelation 20:

    4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

    5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

    6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.



    There's no getting around the fact that the FIRST resurrection includes those who did not take the mark of the beast, nor worship him. You view has them in the second or third resurrection. Or 4th, who knows?

    Wait, how many resurrections are you espousing nowadays, anyways? Last I knew, it was 4 or 5. Are you guys up to seven now, so it can match the number of dispensations?


    I'm also not sure why you think it imperative that we go to heaven and take seven years to get our horses and come back.



    I demand a scripture reference for a timeline and location that you prescribe. Otherwise, it is nothing but foolish conjecture.



    But, you completely ignored what I wrote about the MEETING in the air.

    I won't continue discussing any further points until you address APANTESIN, and what I wrote about it.

    If you respond with any topic other than APANTESIN, I will be finished here. We'll get back to an orderly discussion, without you ducking any of my points, or I won't play your game
     
  18. Greektim

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    I'm looking for the verses that state a 7 year tribulation period.
     
  19. evangelist6589

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    Icon.

    Answer these questions.

    1. How can you prove he came back in AD 70?
    2. How do you prove Satan was bound for 1000 years?
    3. How do you explain that none of the events of the “end of the age” have ever happened, including the cataclysmic events that are supposed to take place in the heavens?
    4. What evidence do you have that the tragic seige of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 was indeed a fulfillment of Jesus’ description of the Great Tribulation?
    5. How can you possibly prove that Nero was the Antichrist, as you claim?
    6. If Christ returned in A.D. 70, when did the church go up in the rapture?

    Also Icon are you aware the document called The Didache? This document proves that those whom lived in AD 70 believed Mt 24:29-31 as unfulfilled prophecy. So in other words the early christians were futurists and not preterists!
     
  20. evangelist6589

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    WinMan

    I see he has posted and he is on ignore as I am so tired of his attitude, his pride, his divisive spirit and so forth. Did he learn anything in his suspension? WinMan you need to learn.
     
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