Rebellion and Overthrowing other Countries

Discussion in 'Politics' started by saturneptune, Jun 9, 2010.

  1. saturneptune

    saturneptune
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    In another thread, several aspects of Christians participating and being involved in rebellion against existing civil government was criticized because of passages in Scripture to obey the government the Lord has put in place. The discussion included our own revolution.

    This seems to be an endless cycle. If we were wrong to revolt against England, then is not it true that at some point, this is the way every European country came into existence?

    Another related issue, what gave these same countries (the super powers of the time) the right to come to the New World, and overthrow existing civil governments, sieze land, abuse its citizens, and loot the land? The existing Indian tribes were no threat to these nations? Although not exactly the same as rebellion, isn't this a total disregard for existing civil authority?
     
  2. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Intriguing question.

    Unless the nation was a totally Christian nation we could not possibly expect them to conform to the principles of the word of God.

    That's my embryonic thought anyway.
     
  3. Bob Alkire

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    Much as I hate to say it, how we look at things comes from how we were taught, we either go along with it or throw it out.
    I'm one who believes our revolutionary war was wrong, but as I always say, I'm not dogmatic about it. I enjoy history, secular as well as church history. Much if not most of the meeting for our revolutionary war was held in churches, much prayer went into it, as it was in the Civil War and for Civil Rights movement.
    Much of our views on war come from the OT and a little NT, NT is mainly from the book of The Revelation.
    As I was taught Israel got its land by taking it away from others as God told them to, if they would have killed all as God said, they would have missed a lot of hard times.
    When one reads secular history and church history of the same time, we learn a lot about what was going on. We allow today as we see it to slant what we read in Scripture, at times. Such as slavery, I just couldn't believe God allowed it to go on and I wouldn't read Eph.6:5 or Eph. 6:9. I knew something was wrong. Then I came to the conclusion that God never calls for corporate actions in solving basic problems of society, solutions are always addressed to individuals.
    We as Christians if one reads church history will see we are guilty of seeing our side and not the total picture. Many dislike Robert Dabney, but his work sheds a lot of light on war and peoples actions.
    I have gone back and forth on war and such, when I spend time in a country that is killing Christians, I'm not as much of a turn the other cheek. I do believe it is wrong for me to fight you or kill you, but it isn't for the government to do so, most of the time, that is why our government and our leaders, we should pray for each and every day. I have used a lot of words to say, I know nothing, except, I try and keep my emotions in check.
     
  4. saturneptune

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    What we definitely have in common is we both like history. Lots of my TV time is on the history channel, although I do not watch much TV. Yes our nation is guilty of some terrible examples of treating other human beings, the Indians, slavery, and the Japanese citizens in WW2. I do realize that we get our impressions from what we are taught, and that includes how war was treated in the Bible. The wars in the Bible were generally for God carry out His purposes. All I am saying, if our revolution was wrong, at some point in time (which I am not familiar, as England was not formed with one war like we were) England was formed by a rebellion.
     
  5. abcgrad94

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    The whole "obey those in authority over you" can be taken to the extreme, I think.

    What if Moses' mother hadn't hidden him and just "obeyed those in authority" and let them kill her baby boy? What if the midwives had just "obeyed those in authority" and murdered Jewish baby boys?

    God gave us common sense and I think that's because he expects us to use it. We could shrug our shoulders and never speak against abortion because after all, the government in authority over us has declared it to be ok. When Hitler was in power he wanted to kill all the Jews. With the extremist attitude of "obeying those in authority" I guess all the Jews would have been exterminated by now had decent people not revolted and rebelled!

    Have your Bible in one hand and your sword in the other!
     
  6. Bob Alkire

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    You are testing my old mind. If my history that I recall is correct, England is Anglo Saxon, which would be German, but Ireland isn't, again if I recall correctly.
    Christians have used the OT over the years to justify many a war. Some of our nations greatest generals were strong Christians. If one reads Dabney and J. William Jones one would put Robert E. Lee and Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson right near their Savior at all times. Also as I'm sure you know Douglas Macarthur was a believer. At one time Patton was trying to make up his mind if he wanted to go to seminary, but from reading about him and his views, I couldn't say if he was a believer or not and it is none of my business, it is between him and God.
    I think in life we do as a lot of theologians do, turn Scripture to say what we want. I had to debate in seminary if Christians should be pacifists or not. Had to debate it from both sides, I am a non pacifists but I don't know about over throwing a government. As I've said before, I can see an over throw as I see a wife leaving an abusing husband. So again I've used a lot of words to say little.
     
  7. Bob Alkire

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    Like that old WWII song, "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition."
    Give you some thing to ponder, their is a big difference when one pulls the trigger on a deer and on a person. I can tell you it isn't good feeling or it wasn't for me at first.
     
  8. saturneptune

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    Every government ever formed is or was made up of flawed human beings. This means all governments have made mistakes at the least or been totally evil at the worst. For all of our flaws in the USA, as mentioned above, we have never approached the evil of the Nazis, Japanese, or for that matter, Rome. For all of our flaws, we have tried to make things better for the individual, to encourage individual freedom and accomplishment, limit governmental control of lives, and use liberty as our founding principle. We tend to stick our nose in wars in which we have no business at times, but very seldom have we gone on a crusade to take over a country for its wealth or human labor.

    Sometimes I think we fail to look at the bigger picture. As governments and countries come and go, we need to realize this is God accomplishing His plan whether or not we understand or agree with it. The Scripture telling individuals to obey and support the existing government is within the context of a reasonable government conducting its everyday business. When God gets ready to remove or change a country, something happens, caused by Him. The alert Christian will be aware of this, and once the process starts, will know how to respond. As said above, common sense comes into play.
     
  9. Bob Alkire

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    My friend, that is the crux of the problem. What I would call reasonable isn't what most of my friends to the left or even some of my friends to the right would call reasonable and at times my wife.
    A church history professor said what you said many times but said it is like a man's salvation only he and God knows for sure and only God knows what is reasonable in His eyes.
    I have and I'm sure many others have as well, gone to seed on a few things.
     
  10. abcgrad94

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    I hope that is something I never have to find out for myself, but I am thankful, for those who have done this to preserve my freedoms and the freedoms of others.
     
  11. abcgrad94

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    Very well said, SN! Letting the Holy Spirit guide us in our day-to-day activities ensures we are following his leading, in his time, instead of jumping on every bandwagon that comes along. You explained that very well.
     
  12. billwald

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    "WE" are to do what is right, not aid and abet those who are doing less harm than others are doing. In other words, there is no obligation to support (or vote for) the lesser of two evils.
     

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