Rebuke not an Elder...

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by TheOliveBranch, Feb 3, 2003.

  1. TheOliveBranch

    TheOliveBranch
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    ...but entreat him as a father...I Tim 5:1

    There is alot of people that would see this as something other than what it is saying. I have always regarded the Pastor of a church as the one whom God has placed there as a shephard over the flock. Should there ever be a reason to raise a hand against the Lord's annointed?
     
  2. Jonathan

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    It appears from the context of this verse, that Paul is instructing Timothy how to rebuke folks (i.e. appeal to the older man as a father, appeal to the older woman as a mother, appeal to the younger men and women as brothers and sisters). The term translated at "elder" here is best understood as being an older man rather than the one who is in the office of elder.

    That being said, are you experiencing a problem with folks actually "raising a hand" against a pastor or an elder? I don't see support for physical violence like that anywhere in the NT.
     
  3. Don

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    There are some pastors, IFB or otherwise, who use this passage to mean that a congregation has no right or biblical stance to ever stand against the pastor; i.e., he is the man of God, and anyone who stands against him for any reason is standing against God.
     
  4. TheOliveBranch

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    It is not talking about an older person, it is using the word "presbuteros", or a man as a presbyter. To "raise a hand" is a biblical term of going against one annointed by God (ISam 24).
     
  5. Ben W

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    A Pastor and an Elder are different, Rebuke not an Elder out of respect, Yet should that Elder go against what the bible teaches, dismiss him.

    1Tim 5:1 "Do not rebuke an older man, but exhort him as a father, younger men as brothers.

    It needs to clearly state Elder here if that is the meaning, as such it is an instruction to the church in general.
     
  6. CompassionFlower

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    OliveBranch:

    This reminds me of something I have just gone thru. A group (on the internet) had a problem. The problem being a brother (let's call him brother A) was living in serious sin, and he was a moderator. Beth was the person who turned in this brother (A) to the owner of the site. It was a big mess. The brother A stepped down from being moderator at the website owners request. So the brother A commiting the serious sin started another website. Both of the women Beth and the owner of the website were furious. They threatened to expose the brother A's sin and claimed the brother did not repent. They were going to expose his sin on the internet.

    I knew brother A, not to the point of his sin, but by now I was told what the sin was by another person e-mail. I talked with brother A and he explained to me different things and said he had confessed his sin to God. There is no reason for me not to believe him.

    Meanwhile the website owner person continued to threaten to expose this brother on the internet. Beth I had met in person at a convention for XJW's, while I was there I also met another brother B who was also a friend of mine thru the internet. Beth was very good friend's with this brother B, he is a very nice person. The problem was Beth as well as everyone at that convention could see that the brother B at this convention was also living in sin.(This is not the same brother Beth had turned in for serious sin above) When it was mentioned, a person said it was none of anyone's business. So I left it at that, being new just coming out of the JW's I sure did not understand the way of Christians. So I said nothing. When I went back on the internet to the website, both brothers were there, both brothers were moderators. This was earlier after the convention.

    I felt that the group on the internet knew of the brothers B's sin from the convention. Well thru this whole experience with it coming out about threatening to expose the serious sin of the brother A. I felt it was not far of Beth, both brothers were moderators on the same group, both brothers lived in serious sin. Beth knew of both brothers sin how could she turn in one brother and not the other. Is not God fair, is not one brothers serious sin as bad as another. You should have seen the post against brother A. It was here that I learnt there are those who believe Calvinist and those who believed Arimian (hope I spelt that right) I immmediately search for my answer on the internet on these two different views. I was in total shock finally I opened my mouth and asked Beth right on the website how she could turn one brother in for sin and not the other, explaining some of the situation without names. Well brother B than said nothing and just left being moderator. Meanwhile, Beth and the website owner exposed brother A by personal e- mail for all those who wanted to know of the brother A's sin and they continue to harass brother A by e-mailing everyone who goes to his site, what his sin is.

    I have been so upset at times about all of this I ended up talking to my pastor, and he has helped me to deal with some of the issues as they arose.

    This is an experience that has left me totally defeated, I was friends with both brothers...Just wondering how someone else might have handled things? What are your honest opinions?

    Love the sinner not the sin? I do, love the sinner not the sin.

    In His Grace, Pam

    PS. None of the names are correct above, for the sake of privacy.
     
  7. Jonathan

    Jonathan
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    You need to check your Greek grammar on this one (rather than just do a word study). presbuteroi is used in the dative case here and is usually understood in the sense of an older man, not one who is in the office of elder. Note Paul's word use for women (as in "older women") here. He uses presbuteras. If you are correct, then you've also discovered an argument in support of women serving in the office of Elder. [​IMG]

    Again, the point in the passage is not that we are to avoid rebuking the older man, but that we must go to him in the way demanded of a son or daughter: with great respect.

    If there is a lesson here for a minister of the gospel (and there obvious is given that this is a pastoral epistle) it is that younger ministers must treat older church members with great respect when the need to rebuke them arises.

    It appears that Paul, in instructing Timothy to "entreat" carefully, has already answered your concern about raising a hand against another.
     
  8. TheOliveBranch

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    Thank-you, Jonathan. I'll look into what you have stated. [​IMG]
     
  9. Jonathan

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    Thank-you, Jonathan. I'll look into what you have stated. [​IMG] </font>[/QUOTE]1 Timothy 5 aside, what is your opinion on rebuking an Elder or Pastor? You've started a very good topic and I'd like you hear more from you. I, too, am searching for an answer on this.
     
  10. Don

    Don
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    The same guidelines for church discipline (Matthew 18).

    Take the matter to him in private; if he hears you, and repents and asks forgiveness, forgive and go on.

    If he won't hear you, take the matter to a deacon or elder or pastor, and go to him; if he repents and asks forgiveness, forgive and go on.

    If he won't hear the two or three (including yourself), then take it before the church; if he repents and asks forgiveness, forgive and go on.

    If he won't hear the church, have nothing to do with him. If he's a pastor or deacon, an immediate vote should be put forth to determine if he continues in that position. If the church votes to allow him to stay in, knowing that he hasn't repented and asked forgiveness, then you need to consider finding another church.

    I keep using the phrase "repents and asks forgiveness" because I've run across one or two that are quick to ask forgiveness without repenting. They don't see that they've done anything wrong, but they don't want any consternation--for want of a better word right now--in the congregation. So they give the appearance of making things right; i.e., asking forgiveness.

    Oh, and make sure you're doing this for the right reasons. Picking your nose is not a reason to church discipline anyone.
     
  11. Dr. Bob

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    I think this qualifies the discussion. It is NOT SIN to rebuke/accuse an older man in the church (true definition of this term) but you'd better have plenty of support and witnesses for doing something that drastic.

    I've been on the "receiving" end of some harsh rebukes and accusations. One fellow said "DR BOB IS DUMB AND UGLY."

    After a long silence in the business meeting, one of my faithful deacons rose and said, "He is NOT dumb." :eek:
     
  12. Alcott

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    You are referring to an elder [pastor] as "the Lord's anointed"? That is not biblical. "Anoint" is used through the Bible meaning to apply oil, and is also used in the NT for the presence of the Holy Spirit in all Christians. THE "anointed one" is the meaning of christos [Jesus Christ], and "the Lord's anoined" is also used for the Old Testament kings. But calling an elder "the Lord's anointed" to the exclusion of others does not have scriptural support.

    But to your question, "Should there ever be a reason to raise a hand against the [elder]?", the answer is actually Yes, if you will read on in I Timothy 5 --

    "Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning." (vv. 19,20)

    So those who continuie to sin upon the basis of 2 or 3 witnesses is the 'reason' to rebuke an elder.
     
  13. Abiyah

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    Well, the dumb and ugly can be contested, but
    I submit that he wears red bow ties. Is that
    normal? If it is not normal, then it must be
    abnormal. Dr. Bob, then, must be abnormal.

    8oD

    Signed--
    Abiyah, who does not wear red bow ties.
     
  14. Alcott

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  15. TheOliveBranch

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    Something that has been on my mind for several years. But before I can say anymore, I need to look into the subject more extensivly. I will reply when I pray and read more. ;)
     
  16. TheOliveBranch

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    I've looked up some and have found Alcott, that we are anointed in the new testament, not with oil, IICor 1:21.

    The subject of church discipline has guidelines in Matthew. But in ITim 5, a few of the steps are not there. Like the first step, to go to the offender first and if he doesn't hear you, then bring two or three. With an elder, we are told not to go to him without two or three. And then to bring the offender before all, in ITim, the pronoun is plural, changing the number from a single offender to a generalization of "those", or more than one. Then, it doesn't say any more as to what is to be done.

    I have read on this board and have seen in times past where so many pastors are being attacked, or brought down for very silly things. If he is in direct conflict with the guidelines for a pastor, in ITim and in Titus, then he should be told. But people are falling farther away from God and Godliness, and choosing a life with many false presumptions. The pastors seem to be on the receiving end.
     

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