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Reformed Theology vs. the Reformed Attitude

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by mandym, Jul 16, 2011.

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  1. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    You know, I have to say that up until a couple of weeks ago, I was beginning to develop a real irenic spirit towards brothers of other opinion. But that all came crashing down when as I was listening to a Christian call-in show on the radio on American Family Radio. A caller asked a question of election and here we go with the radio preacher building up strawmen and knocking them down. If that weren't bad enough, that was followed by a series of calls from good hearted people saying stupid things like "I know Calvinism isn't true because God told us to preach the gospel to the world". I was expecting the radio preacher to finally stem the tide and say "wait, that's going to far, that's not what they believe", but instead he just let the stupid stuff flow. Thinking about it now, I don't know why I should have expected anything different, for his own arguments were not much better than their's.

    I was furious. For the first time in my life, I tried to call in to a radio show, but couldn't get through anyway. The show closed out without any attempt to obtain or represent another view on the subject. So for thousands of listeners, possibly millions (I don't know how much audience AFR/Wildmon has), the facts had been presented and the heretics vanquished.

    So I've reverted back to my "rage stage" or whatever you want to call it.

    I really would like to get along with [non-calvinists], but they keep on lying about what I believe.
     
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I totally agree. That was my experience when I became a Calvinist at a young age.

    I'll concede that point as well. Sin within the people who hold to a particular system doesn't negate the validity of the system. Otherwise, Christianity itself would be proven invalid. :)
     
  3. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Believe it or not I really do understand your perspective. It is very frustrating to be misrepresented. I remember how I felt when I was a Calvinist sitting in a pastor's office who kept quoting John 3:16 over and over as if I'd never considered that before. Then when that didn't "console me" he told me a story of a Calvinist he once knew in Seminary who is now selling cars, as if that would discredit all Calvinists and convince me to recant. It was VERY frustrating, to say the least. That was just the beginning of a decade of these types of ignorant interactions.

    I wish there had been just ONE intelligent and well meaning non-Calvinist who would have walked through the texts with me and explain their perspective in a clear and non-contraversial manner. I don't know if I would have agreed, but at least I would have known there was another scholarly perspective to consider.
     
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    And so , out of curiosity.....ahhh never mind. you will find out in 10 years.
     
  5. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    Thank you for that empathy.
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    J.D.
    This is the exact tension and conflict that we have to consider,in all areas of theology. I have also listened to this error driven and ignorant kind of shallowness.
    It is one thing if the people would not agree, but to not really engage the issues is sinful. It shows a lack of reverence for the word of God.and it could actually be unbelief masked as religion and "tolerance" in an ungodly sense.
    Some who do this betray a lack of sobermindedness that is shocking.
    we are instucted to be patient in 2tim2:24-26
    The only way we can do this is by God's grace and meditating upon what we believe.....that unless God allows someone to see the truth...they cannot
    Why we get frustrated is we look at a person who otherwise seems both nice and intelligent....make very poor choices about how to come to truth,trying in the strength of the flesh, but they believe almost anything but the scriptural truth. Then they accuse ,saying all of the things we hear....you are arrogant, rude , excetera.
    If you got through on the radio...they would have muted your comments, or deflected what verses you offered. we do not know who the elect are, but we know God would have us to remain faithful so that even religious sinners can be saved.
     
  7. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Hear Hear ....:applause:
     
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Why do you suppose God doesn't allow some of his elect children see the truth, while others he does?
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Skan
    good question;

    1] It might not be the right time

    2] They are given what they need,

    3] some might lack the capacity to process it correctly

    4]some might be too proud in spirit. God resists the proud

    5] some have not prayed for truth, in other words....some have not asked in faith that they will hear Jesus through His word...My sheep hear my voice...

    6] some who profess to be the people of God.....are not...they like those in Jn 8,10, 12, missed Jesus when he came, yet they professed to be His people

    7] others might emotionally resist the truth ,depriving themselves of much comfort that is available.

    8]18For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
    19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

    Salvation happens in real time....so does apostasy.and heresy.
    I believe all of God's elect will welcome this truth...with different levels of understanding, different levels of maturity.

    These truths were written in letters where children were also addressed , so it is not like all christians are not to be knowledgeable of the truths of grace.

    9] some true christians might only come to learn a certain amount of truth,
    the thief on the cross...[the saved one] knew only what he needed to know about salvation.....he missed out on seminary training, nevertheless Jesus saved him.
    10] some christians are lazy and ignorant of much of the bible.....willful ignorance......couch potatoes, beguiled by the world, pick and choose types,
    A professed christian...cannot remain in this kind of pathetic existence for a long period of time. There are no backsliders or carnal christians. this kind of sinful disobedience has to be repented of ...God does not have any undisciplined children.
    We each give account of ourselves to God.
    Like I say...God is the judge of the heart......but anyone who is not giving dilegence to make his calling and election sure.....is in trouble
     
  10. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Yes, good question.


    We only are free in Christ. Not before. "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32 and following. We see this is contrary and opposite to bondage of sin. So the first step is salvation.

    After salvation? Some don't know things due to slothfulness, i.e. it is their own personal fault. At times, God reveals to us things by His Spirit for immediate use, as C.H. Spurgeon relays seeing the word "girl" only one time in the Scriptures, and confronted by an atheist, whom he had witnessed to on occasion, who asked how many times it appeared in Scriptures, Spurgeon was able to answer that it only appeared once (KJV), and was lended a listening ear, and this man repented and became born-again. God had spoken to Spurgeon about this word, and caused him to ponder for a reason.

    Some of us give ourselves to God in diligence, and to those, He reveals both His will and Word by His Spirit, but only to those who are sensitive to Him. Sadly, not many will do this. He doesn't yield His truth to the slothful, but we know that He reveals Himself to the diligent:

    "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:6

    - Blessings
     
  11. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    There is that moment where the providence of God interacts with those whom he jas chosen to be found in Christ...

    At that time, the Gospel message make perfexct sense to them, and they exercise saving faith in Christ...

    Its part of the mystery of God being full soverneign and yet allows for us to have 'free will!"
     
  12. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    I've been thinking during this discussion.

    I think what some might think is arrogance is more zeal than anything else.

    The fact that I think what I believe about Calvinism is right, and thus non-Cals are wrong, doesn't make me arrogant. Non-Cals think I'm wrong, but that doesn't make them arrogant.

    Now, if I think webdog, let's say, or Skandelon is wrong because he's too stupid to understand it, and I understand it because I'm intelligent, then that would be arrogance.

    And whether a Calvinist is arrogant or not has nothing to do with the validity of what he believes.

    So let's cool it with perjoratives.
     
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Why? Why? Why?

    Why will God have mercy on some, and not on others?

    Why was Elisha sent only to the widow in Zarephath?

    Why was Christ's most intimate moments reserved for Peter James and John?

    Why favor Paul with the abundance of divine revelations?

    In stark constrast, consider the primary question of the Calvinist: What? Where the Noncalvinist wants to know why God has done certain things, the Calvinist is satisfied in knowing what God has done.

    God knows how to answer. I will have mercy on whom I have mercy. If I will that this man does such, what is that to thee?

    It is a tremendous lesson in humility.
     
  14. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Brother, that is awesome. Thanks for that! :thumbsup:
     
  15. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Yes, "why? why? why?" didn't you answer Skan's question?


    And "why?" did God choose you and not the other guy?
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Gods ways are a mystery & would you have preferred Luke...LOL:tonofbricks:
     
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    there is no mystery....there is no free will....only self will bound by a sinful nature.
     
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

    Because she was chosen for that noble purpose.

    Because they were chosen for that noble purpose.

    Because he was chosen for that noble purpose.

    This non-Calvinist wants to know the intent of the biblical authors, so I study the historical context and strive to understand the specifics of the subject being addressed and the circumstances its being addressed within.
     
  19. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    You know, you mentioned shallowness, and that gets me to thinking about what pushes my buttons. It's not shallowness from the average pew-sitter that really sets me off, although ideally any Christian has a depth to their understanding of these things; but it's the shallowness of preachers, pastors, proffessors, etc. There's no excuse in my mind for the way church leaders treat the great doctrines of Faith, no matter which side of them they may happen to fall. (you may recall my recent ranting at an article by Elmer Townes, the ex-presbyterian that misrepresents the presbyterian system).
     
    #79 J.D., Jul 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2011
  20. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
     
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