Regarding Revelation 3:14 in TR?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by franklinmonroe, Nov 28, 2010.

  1. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe
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    I had an interesting conversation with my brother-in-law on Thanksgiving Day. He tried to make a point with specific wording in Revelation 3:14 that of the seven letters in Chapters 2 & 3 the seventh was the only one addressed to a church of 'people' ("Laodiceans" KJV) as opposed to the other six churches being addressed by their city's name. There are variants between the TR and the UBS Greek texts; but I want to restrict the discussion to the TR text for now. Here is how the KJV has translated the introductions to the 7 letters --
    Rev 2:1 ¶ Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

    Rev 2:8 ¶ And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

    Rev 2:12 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;

    Rev 2:18 ¶ And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet [are] like fine brass;

    Rev 3:1 ¶ And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

    Rev 3:7 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

    Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
    I have looked at the TR text and will summarize some facts about the Nominatives --
    3 are Genitive case (Ephesus, Smyrna, Laodicea)
    4 are Dative case (Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia)
    3 are Singular (Ephesus, Pergamos, Philadelphia)
    4 are actually in Plural form (Smyrna, Thyatira, Sardis, Laodicea) ​
    Furthermore then, the word "in" found within the KJV rendering of 2:8 is NOT supported by the Greek word en (it would be more literally "of" Smyrna). The seventh letter intro is the only Genitive-Plural construction; but the definite article ("the") found in 3:14 is not actually present in the underlying Greek.

    What is the significance of some of these churches being represented by plural names in the Greek rather than singular? and should the difference be shown in translation? What significance could John/HS hope to achieve by writing some phrases in Genitive case and others in Dative? (or, why not a standard formula?) Is there really justification from the Greek to treat the the seventh letter intro so differently than the others?
     
    #1 franklinmonroe, Nov 28, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2010
  2. Dr. Bob

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    I treat it as a defect in the text. See lots of them in the blended Greek text underlying the AV. (The AV's man-made blend of Greek texts is NOT the TR of course; don't perpetrate that myth)

    Since the discussion is to focus on the inconsistency of a text that I believe is defective, I will bow out and allow others who believe that Greek text IS "perfect" to discuss the matter.
     
  3. jonathan.borland

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    The reading "of the church of the Laodiceans" is in the TR in Rev 3:14 on account of the fact that it was the reading of the only Greek manuscript of Revelation (MS 1) available to Erasmus in Basel. The reading in that manuscript probably came about from the accidental omission of εν Λαοδικεια (in Laodicea) in a previous copy due to homoeoarchton error by skipping from the ε of εν to the ε of εκκλησιας. A subsequent scribe, or the scribe of MS 1 himself, corrected the error that then read "And to the angel of the church write" into "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write" by adding the single word Λαοδικεων after εκκλησιας.
     
  4. franklinmonroe

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    Since no one from a TR-preferred position has weighed in, could you just comment on whether the KJV is actually a proper translation of the TR Greek? Thanks
     
  5. franklinmonroe

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    Thanks, your response was interesting.

    jonathan, are you saying that Minscule 2814 (formerly 1r) stands nearly alone in these readings? How few MSS agree with 2814 here?

    (I am aware that the Majority Text does NOT support the TR for "of Laodiceans" at 3:14 but rather has "in Laodicea")
     
  6. jonathan.borland

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    Thanks for the manuscript number correction! I was merely converting von Soden's apparatus using an outdated source.

    I don't know of any other manuscripts that share the reading of 2814 in Rev 3:14, and this circumstance strongly indicates that the reading happened very late, probably in 2814 itself, with the accidental omission of "in Laodicea" due to homoeoarchton error (εν Λαοδικεια εκκλησιας --> ε...ε --> εκκλησιας) occurring in its immediate ancestor.

    Jonathan C. Borland
     
  7. RAdam

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    The answer is: there is no significance. Church in Laodicea = church of the Laodiceans. What is the big deal? Mountain out of molehill
     
  8. franklinmonroe

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    Revelation 3:14 in other (presumably?) TR-based versions which are NOT made plural in English --
    TYNDALE
    And vnto the messenger of ye congregacio which is in Laodicia wryte: This sayth (amen) the faythfull and true witnes ye begynninge of the creatures of God.

    COVERDALE
    And vnto the angell of the cogregacion, which is in Laodicia wryte: This sayth Amen the faithfull and true witnes, the begynnynge of ye creatures of God.

    MATTHEWS
    And vnto the messenger of the congregacion, which is in Laodicia wryte: Thys sayth (Amen) the faythful and true wytnes, the beginninge of the creatures of God.

    GREAT
    And unto the messenger of the congregacyon whych is in Laodicia, wryte: Thys sayth (Amen) the faythfull and true wytnes, the begynnynge of the creatures of God.

    BISHOPS
    And vnto the Angel of the Churche which is in Laodicea, write: This saith Amen, the faythfull and true witnesse, the begynnyng of the creatures of God.
    The GENEVA does have "of the Laodiceans" at 3:14. However, it also has properly and consistantly made plural the church at 2:8 --
    And vnto the Angel of the Church of the Smyrnians write, These things saith he that is first, and last, which was dead and is aliue.

    YOUNG
    And to the messenger of the assembly of the Smyrneans write: These things saith the First and the Last, who did become dead and did live;

    In fact, the BISHOPS (which the KJV was to follow unless changes were required to get closer to the original language) more accurately reflects the TR by rendering "of" for the Genitive at 2:8 (although not plural; this may be more the result of stylistic convention since it uses "of" to address 5 of the 7 churches).

    I mistakenly wrote in the OP that the seventh was 'the only' Genitive-Plural construction, when actually the second letter is also Genitive-Plural (my summary indicating as much). Thus, it seems that if the KJV text is considered accurate at 3:14 then it should be considered inaccurate at 2:8, or vice-versa.
     
    #8 franklinmonroe, Dec 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 4, 2010
  9. franklinmonroe

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    My brothern-in-law was claiming by use of the KJV word "Laodicieans" that this church was more 'human' (apostate) than any before it.
     
  10. franklinmonroe

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    Does anyone know why nearly all the early English versions have "in" & "Laodicia" (singular) rather than "of the Laodicieans" as the TR Greek would suggest? Can anyone suggest a good reason that the KJV would depart from the textual tradition of the preceding 'authorized' English versions (namely the Matthews-Great-Bishops)?
     
  11. glfredrick

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    Has the thought that the church in Laodicia was made up of multiple congregations crossed anyone's mind? Or the fact that by the time of the TR and the KJV that a parish mindset had come to dominate the Christian world? That could potentially account for John's (authoritative) writing, where some are plural and some not.
     
  12. franklinmonroe

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    Perhaps I do not understand your comments: Are you saying that the copyists of later Greek manuscripts (like 2814) that support the TR were influenced by the contemporary thought of their time?
     
  13. glfredrick

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    Perhaps...
     
  14. jonathan.borland

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    I think the influence of the Complutensian Polyglot, which has "of the church in Laodicea" (της εν Λαοδικεια εκκλησιας), is too underestimated.

    Jonathan C. Borland
     

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