Regeneration before Salvation and the Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Archangel, Dec 1, 2011.

  1. The Archangel

    The Archangel
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    In preparing for this Sunday's message, I was reading Luke chapter one. I've read this many times, but this time something jumped out at me.

    When John the Baptist's birth is foretold, the angel says to Zechariah "he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb." (Luke 1:15 ESV)

    In the past, many non-Calvinists and some Calvinists have argued that the Holy Spirit can have nothing to do with you until after one becomes a believer. Of course many here will know that I reject that idea--I believe that becoming a believer is evidence of the Spirit's regenerating work.

    But, for those of you who claim that regeneration follows salvation and for those of you who say faith must come before the Holy Spirit indwells the believer, how do you explain this passage?

    Of course we can all agree that there is something special about John the Baptist, so let's not focus on that. He was special indeed. But he was not sinless and he was every bit the sinner that we are.

    But, please, reconcile the passage to your beliefs (or vice-versa)

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  2. Jerome

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    John Calvin:

     
  3. kyredneck

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    Did Calvin explain how David was made to hope while on his mother's breast or how Isaac was born after the Spirit by the time of his weaning?
     
  4. jbh28

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    Just a note, the permanent indwelling of the Spirit hadn't started yet. That will being in Acts 2. Just some thoughts. :wavey:
     
  5. kyredneck

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    I believe it is more correct to make a distinction between the eternal aspects and the temporal aspects of our salvation rather than divide it between 'regeneration and salvation'.
     
  6. psalms109:31

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    Before Jesus Glorification

    Psalm 51:11
    Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

    John 7:39
    By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

    After Jesus Glorification

    Acts 19
    Paul in Ephesus
    1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[Or after] you believed?”
    They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
    3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
    “John’s baptism,” they replied.
    4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[Or other languages] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

    Ephesians 2:
    11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

    Romans 8:
    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
    “For your sake we face death all day long;
    we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”[ Psalm 44:22]
    37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[ Or nor heavenly rulers] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord
     
  7. Jerome

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    John Calvin:

     
  8. psalms109:31

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    Spirit and life

    The words of Jesus is Spirit and they are life there is no regeneration without Jesus Christ words. Life has it not been given by and through His word?
     
    #8 psalms109:31, Dec 1, 2011
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  9. Winman

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    For starters, this verse does not say John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit while in his mother's womb, but would be filled from his mother's womb.

    In the OT, God could send his Spirit upon any man, and take it again. Balaam was a prophet and had the Spirit, but the scriptures strongly imply he was not saved.

    Num 24:2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him.

    2 Pet 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

    Balaam is counted among the "unjust" in 2 Peter 2.

    We see, the Spirit also departed from Saul.

    1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

    So, we see the Lord could place the Spirit upon whom he willed in the OT, and could take the Spirit away.

    But after the resurrection, Jesus said he would send the Spirit to believers, and he would abide with them forever. This is why we cannot lose our salvation.

    Jn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    John the Baptist was the last of the OT prophets, and God sent the Spirit upon him at an early age. His parents were also very godly which I am sure contributed to his believeing and being filled with the Spirit.

    Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
    6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

    So, it seems certain that John the Baptist's parents taught him the word of God from birth and were an excellent example to him in godly living.
     
  10. percho

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    Me, Percho and I was conceived of my mother and father and for about nine months, as I wasn't miscarried my mother brought me forth. I was born, generation.

    Is marriage between a man and a woman a type of the relationship of Christ to the church?

    Does regeneration taken from the type generation above require conception, time, no miscarriage and being brought forth?

    for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD:

    The two times regeneration is used in the scripture it is used relative to the resurrection.
     
  11. webdog

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    This begs the question, is being filled the same as regeneration? Baalam's donkey was filled in order to see the angel and speak, no?

    Also, does one unique situation mean every subsequent situation follow suite?
     
    #11 webdog, Dec 1, 2011
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  12. The Archangel

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    This is laughable. The expression can mean "from birth" but Luke 1:41--where John the Baptist leaps inside his mother--rules this out. It means that while John the Baptist was in the womb, prior to birth, he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

    Of course, I'd agree God can and does use the Holy Spirit as He sees fit. But, you are the one who claims the Holy Spirit has no part of a person until after conversion.

    I maintain, and this passage seems to support the idea, that conversion is due to the prior activity of the Holy Spirit.

    John the Baptist became John the Baptist because of the Holy Spirit being upon him--something that happened even before he was born.

    The Archangel
     
  13. The Archangel

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    As I said before, John the Baptist is a special case. But he's still every bit a sinner that we are. And, just because it happened to John the Baptist, it doesn't necessarily follow that it happens that way all the time.

    HOWEVER, I am asking the question because of those people here who, basically, claim that the Holy Spirit doesn't have a part of anyone until after conversion. John the Baptist--in utero--was filled with the Holy Spirit and he obviously was not a "believer" at that point. My contention is--at least in his case--the filling of the Holy Spirit guaranteed his "belief" rather than his belief bringing the Holy Spirit.

    Also, I'm not arguing that he was regenerated as I would argue others (think: Acts) were.

    The Archangel
     
  14. Iconoclast

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    Regeneration is a one time thing.....there are many fillings is how I have heard it preached.

    A unique situation is probably just that...or it would not be unique.

    Many times the "unique "things in scripture are signs.....
    Lot's wife
    Korah
    Baalam
    Naaman
    Jonah
    Ezekiels wife
    Annanias Sapphria
     
  15. Iconoclast

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    What I find quite striking in these early parts of Luke and in this account of John

    The angel as God's messenger knows and relays the details of John's life before he is born.......no sonagram....no aminocentisis.....John is known, named , and described....who he will be, what he will do...in relation to the the fulfillment of the covenant and the redemption that was to be accomplished by our Lord.
    the whole chapter is filled with the supernatural:thumbsup:

    In other words Luke is not just reporting random ideas, and unrelated trivia about these events, but to the contrary...this is a grand and glorious period in redemptive history...as the end of chapter one testifies too.

    To think that anything less the he being filled with the Spirit at conception seems to strain against a plain reading of the whole chapter.:type:
     
  16. The Archangel

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    That's a good point. I hadn't thought through it like that. Thanks for the input.

    The Archangel
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    Yes....This is so exciting because it gives God's perspective on each and every detail of redemptive history...including the accomplishment of redemption...
     
  18. convicted1

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    Brother JF had a similiar thread to which I was the only one who replied. Here is what I posted in that thread:

    Now, if regeneration is a whole different step in the salvation process, then someone could be "theorhetically alive" for years, and not known one thing about it. Now, if this could be true, regeneration prior to salvation, then the Word sure doesn't back this up. Neither does it support pre-faith regeneration.


    Isaiah 55
    1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

    2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

    3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.


    So, in verse three it says to incline your ear and come unto me. Then it says to hear and your soul shall live. Hearing is what brings forth life, not life to bring forth hearing. Here is another verse to support this(I know it gets shown a lot, but it does support my claim):

    John 5:24,25
    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


    So you see, these two small passages show that hearing brings regeneration/salvation, and not vice versa.
     
  19. convicted1

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    Another thing, regeneration brings life, correct? Well, one doesn't have life outside of Christ, correct? Here is what Jesus states brings life:

    John 6:51-58
    51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

    53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

    54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    55F or my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

    56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

    57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

    58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.


    No one has life outside of Jesus Christ. One isn't made alive to believe, but is made alive because they believe.
     
  20. psalms109:31

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    Regeneration

    We know that no one seek after God. So God did choose messengers, prophets through out History filling them with the Holy Spirit to seek them and tell them the truth about God and His message. If they didn't go out with out the Holy Spirit they would go out with out any power and no one will be saved and that many that heard through them the Gospel of their salvation having believed was included with them.

    It is all to prepare the way for Jesus who will bring salvation to the world and whosoever believes in Him will be saved.

    God did have to hide the truth from Israel those that had their own desire with that message and picked a remnant who are meek and humble who will trust in the Lord. Those who will not hinder the message to be spread throughout the whole world and wouldn't hinder the Gentiles coming. God would not have to hide the truth from them if everyone was doing His will.

    So because of the messengers chosen to spread a message, because no one seeks after God they believe everyone is chosen that way and no one else being included with those elect that hear the message of their salvation having believed.

    I do believe Paul is the last of these and everyone else was included when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed.

    Those of us who believe in Jesus living water will flow from within us to share with the world and whosoever believes in Jesus shall be saved.
     
    #20 psalms109:31, Dec 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 2, 2011

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