Regeneration does precede Redemption

You conveniently overlook several verses in John 1 chapter 5.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

It is true that whoever is born of God has the capacity to overcome the world (sin, work acts of righteousness), but notice vs. 5 says also that the person who believes overcomes the world.

So, believing cannot be the cause of that power (regeneration) that enables us to overcome the world and be the effect also.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

Looks like you're agreeing with me again

 

Then you are mistaken. If belief is the cause of this overcoming, then it cannot be an effect of the overcoming.

 

This thread deals with regeneration not believing.

Getting back to the topic of regeneration a certain Pastor eloquently described his regeneration and conversion as follows .........

"I remember that sacred time when the Spirit regenerated me, though I understood nothing of the theology of it. One day my mind was dark to the gospel and things of God; the next, it was as though a floodlight came on and I saw what I'd never been able to see and understood what had always been a fog to me. My desires the day before were wholly self-centered; the next day, my heart melted at the things of God and inclined toward Christ. The way that I looked at everything changed from that moment. I believed the gospel; I put my trust in Christ; I committed myself to be His follower. But none of this happened until the Holy Spirit turned on the lights in my darkened mind and soul. I did not even understand enough before this to ask the Lord to regenerate me! He just did it; then I believed the gospel. That's why the use of the passive voice in "born again" is critical for us to grasp? The new birth comes by sovereign action." - http://www.southwoodsbc.org/sermons/john_03.01-08.html

 

Well said!

 

There is no question on this, and you wont find either a non-cal (of which I am) nor an Arminian to disagree. And it is the very reason we states the act of salvation itself is strctly and only the work of God. While it is synergistic in that man must believe, our salvaiton was not obtained because there was some inherent value in that faith we offered to God by it. But that it was God's choice for Him to save those who would believe Him and cry out.

So you are contending that salvation is not monergistic but synergistic?

Man does not trade his belief for salvation nor does believing add anything to the man for salvation. Man simply acknowledges what God says is true and cries out for mercy. Regeneration (being born) is the very act of salvaiton itself (Titus 3:5). Regeneration includes justification, sanctification, being righteous before God, being IN CHrist, and some reformed stated even indwelt with the Holy Spirit. - I AGREE WITH THEN ON ALL COUNTS.. however scripture states that none of these transpire in the life of man EXCEPT - by faith. We are justified by faith, we are sanctified by faith, and since both are needed to be declared righteous before God - that to is by faith, as well as being 'in Christ'. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit scripture states is.. by faith.
Even the very propitiation of Christ Jesus is only applied - by faith.

And I submit that when a person examines not only what regeneration does but how scripture states that it transpires, one can not come to any other conclusion but regeneration is in fact salvation itself. The old man is removed, done away with, seperated from us for ever, and behold - all things have become new (the new man), without spot, taint or stain. This refers to regeneration and in fact is the very defintion of salvation.

Acatully no. Scripture does not assign them two seperate difintions but the relate to the same thing just different wordings expressing either the specifics or general aspects. Salvation is an all encompassing word refering not only to the work of Christ in past and present but also the future things both of and to the believer. Thus it more accurately refers to the work as whole in a general sense combining all aspects at once.

However regeneration is more specific as it deals specifically with those aspects that acatully transpires/ed to makes a person new/saved and as such establishes them securely in that work 'because' it.

Then I would encourage you to do a study NOT of what regeneration does, as I agree with the reformed view of what it does, but in looking at each of those aspects which reflect the 'borned' nature, how scripture states we obtained them. - justification, sanctificaiton, in CHrist, righteous, and even indwelt by the Holy Ghost - all equating to the 'new man'.

If by monergistic you mean that God is the one doing the action, then so is salvation. Man can do nothing to save himself nor can he offer or contribute anything to help save himself. Therefore man is saved by God alone.

I agree, but not in the sense we help God or do something or trade something of value for it. But that we believe what God said is true, and in believing cry out for mercy. And God who is as rich in mercy as He is in grace chooses to reach out toward that man, of His own soveriegn will and choice, and save that person.

NOTE: However, all that aside - the force of the OP is directed to the passage of 1 John 5:1 being an iron-clad proof that regeneration precedes salvation and therefore even faith, and so as not be apart of derailing the thread anymore than I am I shall step away. Thanks for the interaction :thumbs:

 

Evidently just knowing Greek isn't enough to establish Calvinism. Today I dropped by the church we have been attending to talk to the Interim Pastor. During the visit we discussed Calvinism and he said although he holds to the total depravity of man and the perseverance of the saints, he does not hold to irresistible grace, unconditional election or limited atonement. He has a doctorate in theology so I would imagine he has some knowledge to base his beliefs on.

 

Actually I'm contending that it's both. It begins with the monergistic act of regeneration, then once regeneration has taken place synergism then kicks in. I think we both agree that man remains passive in regeneration, and that once regenerated a man must repent and believe. Since man is held personally responsible to personally repent and believe, then we need to label such actions as synergistic, because man isn't passive when it comes to repenting and believing. God doesn't repent or believe for us. But yes He does enable us to do so.

 

Powerful!!!!Thanks Allan.

 

You stated this Theopolis :

I agree with the first half of this (which I bolded for clarification). The latter half I can not, IMO, biblically agree with it.

 

So you think a man can be saved without repenting and believing. Is that correct?

 

That wasn't everything you wrote now was it

 

It is actually Calvinism and the Doctrines of Grace that teach a man can be regenerated without either faith or repentance and has been stated so by several here quite a few times.

 

Then let me now ask .............

Do you believe a person can be saved without repenting and believing?

 

No, they can not.

 

It appears to me that you are begging the question. First of all, keep in mind that you introduced John chapter 1 and then moved to 1 John 5. That's fine that you did so, but keep in mind that my explanation is so far not addressed and remains unaffected.

However, regarding what you say above, 1 John is concerned with who the insiders and outsiders are, and how we can identify them, and with whom we can have fellowship. As such, it is a book concerned about evidence involving in-group and out-group behaviors. It is not concerned so much about how to get into the group, as John 1 is.

1 John 5:1 is addressing who and why we should love. We should love our brothers because they have the same father as us, and have been born into our same family. Who are our brothers? Those who are believing. The issue of the mechanics of the metaphysics of conversion is not the topic, which is demonstrated by the absence of the issue in the discussion. Rather, the issue is who is it that can be identified as being part of the family whom we should love. How can we identify those who have been born from God, and how should we relate to them?