Regeneration, Faith / Faith, Regeneration

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ForumChaplain, Sep 16, 2002.

  1. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    I am looking for a logical sequence of events.

    Can someone explain to me how regeneration can precede faith, when we are saved by grace through faith. To me, salvation by grace through faith means that nothing happens salvifically without faith. In other words, how can oil be pumped through a pipeline before the pipe is laid….

    How did we get the cart before the horse, and how is the horse able to continue pulling it.

    My beliefs are now that we are called to believe by the persuasion of the gospel. If and when we believe the gospel, it then and only then becomes possible to believe unto faith.

    If to believe the Gospel is a good work, then to believe any secular literature must be also. I accept to believe as a work that the evidence produces in us. Nothing supernatural about believing. In other words, God is not asking us to do something that we are incapable of doing even if we are unsaved at this point….

    [ September 16, 2002, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  2. Bible-belted

    Bible-belted
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2002
    Messages:
    1,110
    Likes Received:
    0
    You already understand the most important part; it is a logical sequence, and not a temporal one. The whole shooting match is practically a simulataneous complex.

    As to how regeneration precedes faith, it depends on how a given Calvanist understands the effectual call of God. Some see the efectual call as being the act of the Spirit by which the individual is regenerated. The Call then goes out and the person, regenerated, responds.

    IMO, this is an incorrect understanding of the effectual call. Calvanists like myself see the Call as a work of the Spirit distinct from regeneration by which people are given the gift of faith (not the spiritua gift, but the gift of faith to believe the gospel) and are enabled to respond to the gospel. The individual thus gifted resonds to the gospel in faith, and is regenerated.
     
  3. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Grace always comes to the sinner as a free gift. Christ's gift must be received in order to effectuate grace in the human soul. A manipulation of a human being would tarnish greatly grace because God would be 'tilting the scales' of His Divine justice. This we would say is injustice, something that the Triune Godhead cannot be involved in with respect to His human creation.

    The fallen angel chose; Eve chose to disobey God. This proves the human agency of God's created beings. [​IMG]

    Purity of Christian theology is a wonderful thing, wouldn't you say?

    Respectfully,
    Ray Berrian, Th.D.
     
  4. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    "REGENERATION"

    Regeneration, like all other points of doctrine of God, is deep and
    mysterious. No mortal man will ever be able to tell all about this doctrine ;
    we can only be guided by God's revealed word in writing of preaching on this
    point. The Holy Spirit uses the terms "regeneration", "new creature," "being
    born again," "born from on high." "passed from death unto life," to teach
    this most important doctrine. John 3:3 reads, "Jesus answered and said unto
    him, Verily, verily I say unto you, except a man be born again, he cannot see
    the kingdom of God." Hence we learn the Saviour Himself preached this
    doctrine. It is doctrine of the Bible that man must be born again, must
    be regenerated before he can see the kingdom of God. The Saviour used the
    word "born" here because it taught this doctrine.

    Regeneration is performed by the power of God. It is called a creation ;
    as the child did not perform conditions in its natural birth, he does not in his
    spiritual birth. As Adam was passive in his natural creation, so also is the
    sinner passive in his spiritual begetting and birth. We received capacity to
    understand natural things in our natural birth ; so also in our spiritual birth
    we received capacity to understand spiritual things. Hence one must be born
    of God before he can receive the gospel, for the gospel is a thing of the
    Spirit. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God :
    for they are foolishness unto him ; neither can he know them, because they
    are spiritually discerned."--1 Cor. 2:14.

    Now, who teaches that regeneration is unconditional and that it is
    performed by the Holy Spirit of God? I know of no people on earth outside
    of the Old Baptists. We not only contend that the Bible teaches the doctrine
    of regeneration, but that it teaches that it is unconditional. I know this do
    trine combats all the Arminian world on this point, but Jesus Himself said,
    "As the Father raiseth up the dead and quickeneth them, even so the Son
    quickeneth whom he will." The infant requires regeneration as well as the
    adult, and since it is the work of God, salvation is sure to all the elect.

    God begins the work in the soul, "being confident of this very thing,
    that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of
    Jesus Christ."--Phil. 1:6. This text teaches us that regeneration is an internal
    work. Jesus says, "That which is born of the spirit is spirit." That, as I under-
    stand it, is the spirit of soul of the Adam sinner that is born of God in
    regeneration. Again, "The Spirit is life because of righteousness," but "The
    body is dead because of sin." God begins this good work by giving eternal
    life to the poor sinners on spirit. The atoning blood of Jesus is applied by the
    divine hand of God and the poor sinner's soul of spirit is washed and sancti-
    fied, made pure and righteous, and will nevermore be contaminated wit sin,
    for "Whatsoever he doeth, he doeth forever." God's work will stand : "Who-
    soever is born of God doth not commit sin." In regeneration a warfare sets
    up. The soul, being made pure and spiritual, loves sin and hates the ways
    of holiness. Hence the conflict begins and never ends until the soul is released
    at the death of the body. Therefore the apostle says, "When I would do good
    evil is present with me." Again, "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the
    Spirit against the flesh," "so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

    This explains, dear child of God, why serving the Lord is such a great
    cross. The very fact that you have two minds is an evidence that you have
    been born of God. Some of the fruits of the spirit are these : love, joy, peace,
    goodness, temperance, faith, etc. The very fact that you love God is evidence
    that the good work has begun, and if begun it will be carried on over the head
    or every opposition.

    Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Dear little child,
    do you at times feel a spirit of rejoicing? is your soul filled with heavenly
    joy? If so, it is because you have been born again. Do you at times look upon
    things that are not seen with the natural eye and feast and rejoice in them?
    Can you see a beauty in the dear old church that the world cannot see? If so,
    you do it by faith ; this is because you are born again and have the spirit of
    God. Your cross will often seem heavy ; your sins will cause you many bitter
    tears ; the flesh will often give you trouble. You will often be reminded, as of
    old, that the "Cananites" are still "in the land." At death your spirit will go
    to God who gave it, and in the glorious morning of the resurrection your
    mortal body will be raised and made spiritual. Then, and not until then, will
    salvation be complete with you. The man in his entirety will be capacited to
    praise and worship God forevermore in glory. No wonder we long for the
    coming of our precious Lord to take us home!

    Man in his entirety fell and man in his entirety was redeemed by Christ,
    and man in his entirety will finally be saved and live with Him in glory. This
    perfect work is based on the perfect mediatorial work of Jesus for sinners.
    All for whom Christ died will be quickened into divine life by God the Holy
    Spirit ; and when we rise from death's prison to meet Jesus in the air, we will
    bid farewell to sin. We will no more have a cross, no more tears, no more
    darkness, for the Lord God is the light of that city. There will be no more
    sad farewells, no more pain, no more death, but our precious Redeemer will
    lead us to fountains of peace and joy... This article was written by Elder S. N. Redford of the Primitive Baptist... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  5. cfolsom

    cfolsom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2002
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    0
    To have a better understanding the unconditional regeneration power of God, one needs to have a better understanding of man's position after Adam transgressed the Law.

    This doctrine is called Total Depravity. Let's get a few verses from God's Holy Word about man's condition before regeneration.

    Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
    Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savor; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
    Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
    Job 25:5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
    Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
    Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
    Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
    Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

    These are but a few verses which points to man's total depravity. The 3rd Chapter of Romans is the decisive chapter which shows man's state without God.

    Most all agree God must move first for man to be saved. That is where evbertone differs from Primitive Baptist. Most denominations (Christian denominations)teach once God calls a person that person has a choice to choose God or not. I believe and so do the Old Baptist (like Glen)that if God's calls a man, the man cannot resist God.

    Luv ya Glen!!!

    Changed like Saul,

    Elder Chris Folsom

    www.pbsermons.org
     
  6. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    0
  7. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    I would pay attention to what Elder Chris said... He came out from among the Arminian brethren and can speak from being on the other side of the fence. I'm a homegrown Primitive Baptist and have never been a part of any Arminian church... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  8. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Perhaps Elder Chris could perhaps benefit from listning to me, I am a calvinist trained minister, as soon as i learned to read, i jumped the fence. Now i am just a Christian....

    Truth be told, my whole study group jumped...

    [ September 17, 2002, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  9. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    Since I too came from the other side of the fence, from among the Calvinist brother, should we pay attention to what I say as well, or does it only work one way? [​IMG]

    SEE
     
  10. Bible-belted

    Bible-belted
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2002
    Messages:
    1,110
    Likes Received:
    0
    The difference of course is that those who jump FROM Calvanism don't understand Calvanism. Those who jump TO Calvanism DO understadn Calvanism.

    So obviously you should listen to only those who made the jump TO Calvasnism. ;) [​IMG]
     
  11. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Now I see where all your errors come from, you conclude from the bible in that same way....
     
  12. Bible-belted

    Bible-belted
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2002
    Messages:
    1,110
    Likes Received:
    0
    Now I see where all your errors come from, you conclude from the bible in that same way....</font>[/QUOTE]Strong talk from someone who has never succeded in deonstrating an error. You on th eother hand have never failed to misrepresent Calvnaistic teaching.

    That being the case, I'll consider the source when reaing that particular criticism.
     
  13. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Now I see where all your errors come from, you conclude from the bible in that same way....</font>[/QUOTE]Strong talk from someone who has never succeded in deonstrating an error. You on th eother hand have never failed to misrepresent Calvnaistic teaching.

    That being the case, I'll consider the source when reaing that particular criticism.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Give the scriptures the same consideration and you eliminate the error in your intrepretation. Consider the source, they are the revelations of a just and holy God... You ought to be ashamed of yourself...

    Alas, enough personal evaluations. Show me a passage of scripture that you think infers or demonstrates salvational predestination/election and i will show you that it is talking about something else...
     
  14. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    The first seminary that I attended was a Calvinistic one, Reformed Episcopal Seminary in Philadelphia and the professor of Systematic Theology was Dr. Rudolph. He was a double predestinarian, meaning that God elects some to Heaven and also to Hell and gets some kind of glory out of this. After a year of misinformation I attended a more Arminian/Evangelical seminary. Dr. Rudolph would not even entertain questions from some of the men and women who attended there, if he though it might violate his five points of Calvinism. So much for open discussion . . . . [​IMG]
     
  15. Bible-belted

    Bible-belted
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2002
    Messages:
    1,110
    Likes Received:
    0
    Chappie,

    I cam to Calvanism by a thorough study of the Scriptures. I studied Scripture, then found out afterward thatI had found Calvanist teaching therein.

    As for the scritures about election, I am sure yo knwo what the are. I am equally sure you don't know what they teach if you don't think they teach election.
     
  16. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    A perfect example of why no one understands Calvinism, not even most Calvinist.

    No information of value presented....

    [ September 18, 2002, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  17. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    Chappie, to be honest, I am pretty much staying out of this now because I am not sure that there is any real desire (not only on your part but also on the part of others) to learn what we actually believe. Previous explanations and support from Scripture have not been accepted with openness and willingness to see what I am saying. Perhaps there is and I am wrong. I hope so. But this leads to my question, what kind of "information of value" are you prepared to accept for proof? This forum is filled with "information of value" when it comes to what we believe and how things fit together. WE have not shied away from any passage of Scripture. We have practiced literal-grammatical-historical interpretation. We have correlated our Scriptures with other Scriptures. We have not come to Scripture looking to prove a system but rather simply accepting what it says, even if there are things that we do not fully understand and things that stand in our minds as "confusing" or "paradoxical." We are willing to let those tensions stand for the sake of loyalty to the truth of God's revelation.

    What kind of information are you prepared to accept? What is it that you are looking for (besides an argument)? I will be glad to explain to you what I believe and to show you (as I have) where I believe you misunderstand what I believe. But you will have to be more clear with what it is you are looking for and prepared to accept.

    [ September 18, 2002, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  18. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    I agree with Pastor Larry!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  19. Bible-belted

    Bible-belted
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2002
    Messages:
    1,110
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ditto. Larry said it as well or better than I could have.
     
  20. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Chappie, to be honest, I am pretty much staying out of this now because I am not sure that there is any real desire (not only on your part but also on the part of others) to learn what we actually believe. Previous explanations and support from Scripture have not been accepted with openness and willingness to see what I am saying. Perhaps there is and I am wrong. I hope so. But this leads to my question, what kind of "information of value" are you prepared to accept for proof? This forum is filled with "information of value" when it comes to what we believe and how things fit together. WE have not shied away from any passage of Scripture. We have practiced literal-grammatical-historical interpretation. We have correlated our Scriptures with other Scriptures. We have not come to Scripture looking to prove a system but rather simply accepting what it says, even if there are things that we do not fully understand and things that stand in our minds as "confusing" or "paradoxical." We are willing to let those tensions stand for the sake of loyalty to the truth of God's revelation.

    What kind of information are you prepared to accept? What is it that you are looking for (besides an argument)? I will be glad to explain to you what I believe and to show you (as I have) where I believe you misunderstand what I believe. But you will have to be more clear with what it is you are looking for and prepared to accept.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Pastor Larry,to be honest, I am pretty much {given up on you}because I am not sure that there is any real desire (not only on your part but also on the part of others) to learn what {I} actually believe.

    Previous explanations and support from Scripture have not been accepted with openness and willingness to see what I am saying. Perhaps there is and I am wrong. I hope so. But this leads to my question, what kind of "information of value" are you prepared to accept for proof?{that the docturine of salvational election/predestination is not scriptural.}

    This forum is filled with "information of value" when it comes to {why i object} what {you} believe and how things fit together. WE have not shied away from any passage of Scripture. We have practiced literal-grammatical-historical interpretation. We have correlated our Scriptures with other Scriptures.

    {I} have not come to Scripture looking to prove a system but rather simply accepting what it says, even if there are things that we do not fully understand and things that stand in our minds as "confusing" or "paradoxical." We are willing to let those tensions stand for the sake of loyalty to the truth of God's revelation. {Your paradoxes and confusions are not hidden from the whole body of Christ, You assume that because you do not understand, it is a mystery, maybe, maybe not..}

    What kind of information are you prepared to accept? What is it that you are looking for (besides an argument)? I will be glad to explain to you what I believe and to show you (as I have) where I believe you misunderstand what I believe. But you will have to be more clear with what it is you are looking for and prepared to accept.

    Basically your words, not only do they express your fustrations, they express mine also.

    But alas,down to business.
    What is your understanding of the concept of total depravity.
    How/where is it supported in scripture.
    How is total depravity scripturally translated into a condition where it is impossible for one to understand/believe the gospel without first being regenerated.
     

Share This Page

Loading...