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Regeneration: Is it a prelude to OR the Act of Salvation ~Born Again~

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Allan, Sep 20, 2007.

  1. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Then being Fathered of God precedes their love. So what is the difference at 5:1?
     
  2. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    There is no difference because it isn't about chronology. Simply a present state of being resulting from a past act. That past act is faith by which they were born of God.
    Whatever is born of God overcomes the world
    AND THIS IS THE VICTORY THAT OVERCOMES THE WORLD
    Being Born of God? or "OUR FAITH"?

    They are equated as the same thing because they refer to the same time.
    However, the very next verse asks who is he that overcomes the world but he that believes. Why not state He that is born of God since being born overcomes the world and it should 'potentially' precede faith. And yet scripture stays with faith as the victory which overcomes the world.

    IF I was to look for a similtude of chronology I would see it here, but it still is not specifying chronology but a state of being.
     
  3. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    It is not about chronology, yet you cannot avoid chronological arguments to support your view: "That past act is faith by which they were born of God."
     
  4. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    I will respond in reverse order:

    2. To use to word "divorce" in describing the present force and its relationship to the past complete action is to misunderstand the nature of its distinction. Nothing is being divorced. This is the nature of its use. Not exclusively but much of the time and is so here, hence why it is translated "is born", the emphasis being on the present reality of a completed past action.

    This is simply a grammar rule and reality of the Greek perfect and surely you know this. There is a present force employed. It isn't my grammar rule I made up.


    Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God

    1. As for 1 Cor 5:14
    I need more information regarding what you are asking about "rose", its significance and the perfect tense.
     
  5. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I agree that a chronological argument can be made with 1 John 5:4 (but I'm not trying to). But those texts WE were discussing concerns the verses with the Perfect tense. These verses can not be used to state or specifically define an order because that is not the intent of Perfect tense here.

    Simply put the past act of faith is that which is equated WITH being Born. Both are past but not chronologically defined in the Perfect.
     
    #45 Allan, Sep 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2007
  6. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Guys, this is NOT skypair's opinion --- it's "All the Doctrines of the Bible" by Lockyer. Wake up and smell the coffee!! CONVERSION and then regeneration and faith!

    skypair
     
  7. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Regeneration is the "work" that God has begun in us (Phil 1:6) when we receive Christ. It is done by the POWER of the indwelling HS.

    Conversion is IMMEDIATE justification -- regeneration is PROGRESSIVE sanctification. We are reBORN as babes growing into the "adults" -- into the "image of His dear Son," Rom 8:29.

    It regards body, soul, and spirit, Allan.

    You said NOT to use the "born again" terminology in your OP!! :laugh: Stop comparing that!

    Actually, it's like I just said -- we are born "babes" in Christ and, yes, it takes till the Bema to be "complete" in Christ!

    Allan, unless you are born again you CANNOT SEE the kingdom of God, right? When you only believe, you do NOT see the kingdom. You must repent and receive to turn hope into sight!

    You know, we usually think of sight in regards to when we seen Christ or when Messiah's kingdom comes. But Allan -- wouldn't you agree that when we believe and are saved that we CAN see the kingdom of God? Isn't that what 1Cor 2 -- knowing the 'hidden wisdom of God' -- is all about? SEEING the mysteries and parables when the world cannot?

    But I'm glad asked these questions. I don't believe Calvinists have thought of this either.

    skypair
     
    #47 skypair, Sep 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2007
  8. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Sky, no one said it is. If you notice, you stated alot of things that need more clarification. Like your above. You simply make a statement and expect us to just accept it.

    Though I appreciate YOU being the only one to attempt to answer the 3 questions posed. You needed to be clearer on what you are ascribing as your points and position.

    However, we will disagree about faith coming after regeneration but belief is before regeneration.
     
  9. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Yet God DID bind Himself to time in Christ -- and in YOUR salvation.

    You're talking in circles, rb. It is NOT clear that it is God's election of men and not men's choosing of God. It is NOT clear that God chose rather than forsaw. The Bible says He foresaw. There is a MAN who postulated that "foreknow" means predestined.

    skypair
     
  10. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Or as someone I know has said, "I don't understand all that I know about that."

    skypair
     
  11. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. And I have not disagreed with the use of the perfect.

    a. Let me quote a source that speaks to the same: "Believing" in Jesus (present tense in Gr.) is a direct consequence of our "having been born" (perfect tense in Gr.) of God and therefore becomes a "test" or of proof of that birth" (Glenn W. Barker, "1 John," in EBC, vol.12, p. 348).

    2. His resurrection is historic, completed act, captured by the perfect tense, with present realities.
     
    #51 TCGreek, Sep 21, 2007
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  12. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    I was only appealing to your own use of what you were denying me, except you reserved the sequence.
     
  13. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    I agree on both occasions.
     
  14. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I see, allow me clarify then.

    I am not denying you a sequence of events to be established. But as shown you just can not derive a sequence of events through the 'Perfect tense' usage with Present force.

    If you would be so kind as address the 3 questions in the OP, it would help some understanding and the furtherance of this thread in relation to intent of the OP.

    :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #54 Allan, Sep 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2007
  15. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Now if I'm wrong in understanding those who hold to regeneration preceding faith, then correct by all means. Do so (if you would be so kind) by answering the 3 questions set forth in the OP (shown above).


    SKYPAIR - I will answer yours shortly - right now I'm at work.
     
  16. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Sorry it took so long Sky.
    Not sure I agree since regeneration is not something 'begun' as though it is not completed yet. (It may be cause I'm not sure what you are getting at here, so bare with me).
    Regeneration IS a completed work of God not a continuing work.
    Notice the term 'are passed' which is in the indicitive mood meaning - a simple statement of fact.
    The same is with 'are become' which is also in the indicitive mood as well.
    The phrase "all things are become new" is the same as saying "all things [have] become new" thus establishing NOT a progressive regeneration but a completed fact, and is why it states the old ARE passed and the new ARE become (not becoming).

    Since you and I hold regeneration in the same meaning I will use this verse of born again to illistrate anther statement of fact not progressive regeneration.
    You can not 'see' (meaning percieve) the Kingdom of God unless you are 'born again'. Not until you are completely born again. It is an established fact that either either ARE or ARE NOT.

    Regeneration is NOT sanctification.
    We are either born again or we are not, and it is that simple.
    Regeneration, Sanctification, and Glorification can best expressed in like manner:

    1. He HAS saved us (regeneration) – Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

    2. He IS saving us (sanctification) - 2 Cor. 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.

    3. He WILL save us (glorification) - 1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    Regeneration and Sanctification ARE NOT the same thing.

    Umm. No, that is not what scripture states. Eph 2:8 (HAVE BEEN SAVED) We will see the culmination of the salvation we have already at the Bema Seat but the Bema Seat in no way is there to establishes us as the saved. The Bema seat is for those ALREADY deemed saved. It is a place of rewards for those who ALREADY ARE saved.

    If you will note the word "see" can also mean and in fact does mean 'perceive' - to understand something. This 'see' is connected to being born again JUST as being born again is connected with 'entering' the Kingdom. They are synonamous.
    It is why the world know (understand - perceive) we are here because they hear us but do not understand what we are doing.
    This is why Nick asks How can this be. Not that he disputed Jesus but that he never noticed that truth until Jesus presented it to him regarding the scriptures he (Nick) was considered a master of.

    However, regarding 'believe' - I do not believe you are correct. If you were able to read the Greek like you do the English you would not see the word believe or faith as different words. They are actaully the same word. And can be seen where Scripture states :
    Since we both beleive that born again IS saved, you will note the above states that they only believed that they are and or are to be saved/born again.

    BTW - where are you learning alot of this believe and repent and then you get faith from God to replace your belief. Or that regeneration is sanctification and that we are becoming saved until the bema where we ARE saved?

    Sorry, I am again in disagreement.
    To see Christ IS to see the Kingdom for the Kingdom is in Christ, is of Christ, Through Christ, and by Christ. Christ IS our Faith and Hope (expectation).
    What is eternal life but that we might know the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom He has sent.
    Paul stated "I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord...".
    IOW - To see Christ for who He truly is, is to see the very Kingdom of God, and know Christ is to also know the Kingdom into which we have entered.
    I never said I think the Calvinists have not thought this through. But I did want to speak of it to be better set forth an understanding of Regeneration and let others define the words and their meaning, what it is and does. That way we can honestly set forth a proper dialog to see if it can be an either or premise with no damage to the scripture or if we could potentially see it as a Prelude TO salvaiton or the Act OF salvation.
     
    #56 Allan, Sep 27, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2007
  17. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. Regeneration is a "The concept of God renovating the heart, the core of a person's being, by implanting a new principle of desire, purpose, and action, a dispositional dynamic that finds expression in positive respose to the gospel and its Christ" (J.I. Packer, Concise Theology, p. 157).

    2. These two other questions are answered in the definition I offered above from J.I. Packer.
     
  18. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    First, let me state I appreciate your answering the questions :thumbs:
    I will break up the statement in accordance with the questions presented if that is ok?

    I asked:
    Your answered via quote from J.I. Packer:
    God willing, no one SHOULD dispute this.


    I also asked:
    Asswer via Packer in rest of his quote:
    So what it does is:
    1. Implants a new principle desire
    2. Implants a new purpose
    3. Implants a new action (?)
    4. Implants new dispositional dynamic...positive responce to the responce to both Christ and the Gospel

    Is that correct thus far?

    I also asked:
    This was not answered by Packer in the above quote.
    He answered a 'Why' question in answering - that regeneration... [is to bring about a] postivie responce...

    So I'm still looking for the third question.

    It could also be stated this way:
    How does regeneration bring us into union or approval with God?
     
    #58 Allan, Sep 28, 2007
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  19. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    :) Bumpity bump :)

    With all of Bismarks posting I nearly lost track of where it went :laugh:
     
  20. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    in "All the Doctrines of the Bible" Lockyer states that sanctification is immediate, progressive and eventual. Yes, it has a beginning -- we are babes in Christ when first regenerated. But we grow up from that same regeneration until we are completely changed.

    Exactly -- but you do not see it all at once.

    It is clearer that way.

    Part of same thing, salavtion.

    That's quite alright. But right now you only believe there is a rapture coming -- when you "fly away," you will have faith of it. :thumbs:

    Faith is a "spiritual gift." Thus, it is given by God, not something that we can create in ourselves. Only God can give the "evidence" and "substance" of belief that is faith. That evidence and substance is the indwelling HS and the ability to see and enter the kingdom.

    That's NOT what Jesus told Nicky and Jesus (the kingdom of God) was standing right before him! 1Cor 2 makes it clear that the kingdom is the 'hidden wisdom of God' and the mysteries and parables (cf. Mt 13:11-14). The kingdom is perceived SPITIRUALLY, not physically, at this time. Christ is, obviously, a part of it -- the mystery of "God with us" for instance.

    I am in full agreement that this is where Calvinists "miss the boat." One cannot be born again/regenerated without belief and repentance toward God/justification.

    I'm not sure what "damage to scripture" is done by calling for belief prior to regeneration, Allan, and proof of belief provided after regeneration in what we call "faith." What do you call the decision-making activity that leads up to regeneration?

    skypair
     
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