Regeneration: Is it a prelude to OR the Act of Salvation ~Born Again~

No, and with the same respect, you guys are simiply talking 'about' regeneration in a general sense and who is and is not or can and can not be regenerate, but this is not what the OP is asking for. This same subject you guys are engaging in 'currently' is being talked about in various others threads, and it is the same stuff rehashed over and over. I am trying to break this down so we can identify when we become a new creation, and what has transpired to make us such. It is in this we find the answer to what regeneration really is and thus when it transpires. I'm not saying things can't be talked about but I have been trying for 3 years on this thread alone to engage 'this' type of discussion and it is typically avoided. (check the dates at the beginning ) Yet it is 'this' type of examination that 'I believe' refutes regeneration being before faith.
This Op is asking:

 

Please understand that I DO welcome the recent activity and discussions however I only wish to keep it relevent to the OP's questions as much as possible.

 

Skandelon, your missunderstanding me. I don't mind the discussion BUT bring it back to what the OP is asking because 'that' is the crux of the matter.

Example.. If they are regenerate prior to faith, then they are spirituall alive. So where in scripture are we ever declared alive without being IN Christ first?
If death means spiritual seperation from God then life means what?
If the regenerate are alive and are in Christ prior to faith then how can sin be in unity with a holy God?

See what I mean?

 

Well Hello! I am doing quite well and youself?
Actually I take that back, I'm at work and bored 'at the moment' but still doing quite well

Agreed.

I understand that and will not go there.

Second, How does "Regeneration make the sinner who is unwilling (and therefore unable) to respond to God willing"?

IOW - What transpires to make this person willing?
(this is really what the 3 question is supposed to be asking)

Yeah, the words I used were words used when those of the Reformed view spoke of it or they used them while debating on the subject. But that aside since it really doesn't matter...

How does act of regeneration bring us into union with God?
And, what exactly does this union entail?

Also.. does not scripture state that we are unified with Christ 'by faith'?

I would by it to if God chose us and faith was not needed to be saved.
An adopted child has no choice in matter of who is adopting them. If they are older they can be asked if they would 'like' to be adopted by the potential partent(s) but it really has no bearing on the adoption if the people desire to adopt that particular person.
So I guess my question here is if a person is a child of God what need is there for faith unto salvation?
Or justification or sanctification?

Now we're cooking :laugh:
What is involved in this 'mechanism' by and through which salvation actaully occurs.

No it is not really a different discussion but it seems still relevent. If our union happened at the cross where the propitiation of Chrsit was offered unto God for sin, then why are we not born saved?
Why does scripture state the propitiation is obtained or applied through faith (Rom 3:25)?

This is related to my point earlier, if this is true that by our adoption we being brought into unity or made one with God (thus unified) prior to faith, then what is the need for faith? If was are already God's children and one with the Father, what reason must we believe that we might be saved?

Additionally - when do you believe we are 'become a new creation', and what exactly does this entail?

Thank you for some great interaction, and to the others as well - Thank you.

 

Did it really sound that bad?

I'm sorry guys, it wasn't intended to be as harsh as it apparently was conveyed.

 

Not if one sets down and examines what scripture says about them

Sorry, but there is not now nor ever has been in church history any such doctrine or teaching from scripture that has been ascerted and or held in the main as what you and others PB'ers present. And with all due respect there is no real or valid reason to continue this discussion on 'this subject' because not only I but also those Cals/Reformed (or better those who hold to the sovereign grace doctrines as well) do not and will not be able to find any common ground with you so as to properly discuss this topic. Your view is diametrically different or maybe better, distinct from all others.

All main line views but that of the PB's either hold or have held to the scriptural position that regeneration is the vital part in/of our eternal salvation and not a 'gospelly' or temporal/timely one. IOW - there are none who are God's or even of God, who are not of faith in Christ Jesus. No one has been redeemed outside of faith (Rom 3:25) and no has eternal salvation (life) apart from faith in Christ.

I know your view and I am one who frequently gives PB's credit for holding to a true monergist view, but to continue the discussion I believe would be fruitless because we would be talking past each other as PB's see,understand regeneration as something completely different from the rest of us and for a completely different purpose. However I do thank you at least for interacting on it.

 

Great, we will come back to this

Here we all agree and that is why I would like to distinguish what it either is or at the very least, what it is not.

Don't go throwing the cart before the horse.
Let's not saying it isn't 'something' when we aren't sure yet just what is going on.

Ok, so here we have 2 potential views that are 'thus far' acceptable to you.
1. It is work of the Spirit regarding rebirth.
2. It is something 'like' the rebirth, but it is still a work of the Holy Spirit to cause them to see, hear, and understand.

The Holman Bible Dictionary states this:

As shown above this new birth is also refered to as a 'new creation' as both refer to a supernatural change in which the person is no longer the same as they were prior to this regenerating work of God. And it is from this (new creation) where we find the most precise definition - old things are no more, behold (or take note) all things have become or are now made new.

Jesus when speaking to Nickodemus, stated that you can not see/percieve the Kingdom of God unless you are born again. This word -perceive- is important because it does not mean you can't understand, but that you don't know what 'is going on in and with the Kingdom of God' unless you are born again. This is also why He states, not only can you know what is going on around you regardign the Kingdom of God but that you can not enter it so that you can know what is going on.

Remember that Nickodemus was a leader and teacher of Israel and like others within his group knew that Jesus could not do what He was doing without God being with Him - In a relationship with Jesus like the Prophets and saints of old. But they and Nick was in the dark as to what God was and is doing through Jesus. They could not figure it out themselves. This is the truth which Jesus was explaining as no one but someone who is born again can see/perceive what God was doing (Kingdom of God) and not no one can enter, IN ORDER TO perceive, the Kingdom of God unless he is first born again.
This, I believe, is why Jesus speaks about perceiving first and entering second, because the leaders thought they were already apart of God's kingdom and as such should know or at least come to understand what God is up to. Yet Jesus tells them not only can they not perceive it but explains why not, because they are not even IN the Kingdom that they might see it. It was impossible for a man to see in depth a Kingdom which he was not in much less apart of.
I know many reformed scholars like to state the passage about 'the wind blows where ever it chooses' is about the regenerating work of the Spirit however I believe context does not bear this supposition out. I believe context illistrates that what Jesus was speaking about there is a continuation of helping Nickodemus understand why he as a spiritual leader of Israel was still in the dark about what God was doing. I do agree that the wind represents the Spirit but not regarding regeneration but as was being spoken of, the work of the Kingdom.

The Spirit goes where ever He wishes to, you hear it, but you do not (watch now) know where it is coming from or going to. And it is for THIS reason ol' Nick asks "how can this be"? I mean he was spiritual leader and teacher of Israel how could he NOT be apart of the Kingdom and thus apart of what God was doing and knowing what was going on.

Then Jesus tells him an interesting thing, If I told you of earthly or natural things you would not believe me, so why should you believe me if I were to tell you spiritual things. Why would Nick NOT believe Jesus if Jesus told him of natural things (non-spiritual). And if he wouldn't beleive those worldly things which the natural man can grasp on his own, why would Nick think he would believe spiritual ones.

This is why Jesus also uses the illistration of Moses lifting up the serpent so that anyone who wished to look upon it would be healed from the serpent bites they had received (a natural truth that physically did happen). And just as the serpent was lifted up for all who was afflicted that they might live (pass from certain death to life), in the same manner the Son of Man must be lifted up (spiritual truth that will spiritually happen).

But still what needs to be remembered here is that being born again/from above/new birth speaks only that which either has or has not happend and not acatully to the what and how it transpired.

Now, I have gone pretty much through chapter 3 of John but let us look at the 'new creation' in which old things are passed away behold all things have become new.
1. What constitutes old things?
1b. Is it not sins and transgressions?

2. How are they passed away or removed?
2b. Are not our sins removed through the shed blood of Christ?
2c. Is not this shed blood also known as the propitiation for our sins applied only through faith? (Rom 3:25)

3. And what has to have happened in order for that creation to be stated as 'new' (without taint or blemish)
3b. Does not payment for the penalty of sin (propitiation) justify us before a Holy God and set us free from that condemnation?
3c. And does not our justification (being made free from judgment through a substitute) cause us to be clean, without taint or blemish on our account against God?
3d. If this is so, are we then not sanctified (seperated) unto God being now freed from sin, cleansed from it's soiling, and placed in good standing/relation with God or better in unity with God?

As for the Greek :laugh: I don't think it needs come into play to much :thumbs:

 

I agree he articulates himself very well, but unfortunately no one but PB'ers will accept his rendition of salvation and regeneration as it has never been a mainline doctrine the church has ever held. The only other group whom I know was similar to your view in this were the Hyper-Cals that held the elect are born already saved they just haven't realized it yet. THe distinction though is that all the elect will eventually realize it and stand in faith unto Christ the Lord before their death.

 

Actually, there is quite a few places that speak both of and to it but they typically refer to the current state of being of a believer - It is from these passages we know a person who is regenerate is justified, sanctified, indwelt by the Holy Spirit and placed into Christ.
There is however only a few that speaks of a person prior to regeneration or specifically 'at' or being regenerate.

I agree

Ok, but no where in scripture will you find a regenerate person who is not justified. Titus 3:5 speaks specifically to this

Notice our salvation is dependant upon two things here, both of which are working of God the Holy Spirit. However notice especially that this salvation is due to two aspects of regeneration, which are specifically addressed. Some hold that the 'washing of regeneration' refers only physical baptism but I whole heartedly disagree since the wording here refers back to the OT temple regarding 'the laver' . The laver of cleansing stood outside the door of the tabernacle, wherein the priest had to wash before entering the Holy Place, this symbolized not only being clean before God of unrighteousness and sin but also being set apart unto God, sanctified.
Thus we must also be washed in the laver 'of regeneration' but not of/by ourselves but by the Holy Spirit (Spirit baptism 'by fire' illistrating judging and cleansing) before we can come into the body of Christ which is the church. And we members of the body of Christ are also called "a royal priesthood" and like them we to must be cleansed prior to entering in of the Holy place/into Christ. I believe this fits more accurately the meaning of what Paul is conveying as the work of the Holy Spirit in the two main aspects of regeneration that constitutes a persons salvation.

The renewing of the Holy Spirit refers to change in disposition. Thus the Holy Spirit does not just cleanse them from sin to go back to their old ways, but also makes them a new creation. This new creation/new birth is not only freed from the penalty of sin but freed also from the power of sin over them that they might henceforth live unto God and no longer unto themselves (2 Cor 5:15).

The 'and' that connects the two aspects simply means 'in addition to' or "in conjunction with". In other words you can't have one without the other as each aspect, though distinct, works in unison with the other, for without one there is no other. As there is not justification without sanctification there is no sanctification without justification. And this why these two aspects of regeneration equate to and establishes the fact of one's salvation. They are two sides of the same coin and thus inseperable. For like the coin, to have one side without the other makes the coin of no value.

Refer to previous point

Agreed.

Agreed here as well.

The term 'new' here means specifically that - new. No defects, without fault, perfect or right.

If, as you say, old things are sin and unrighteousness (refer back to your answer in #1) what then is 'new' referring to since it is contrasting these two points?

You state 'new' refers to being born. Ok. But what does being born or born from above entail?

We are agreed here as well.

So far so good :laugh:

Very close yes. Let me rephrase it a bit with some additions.

I am arguing that regeneration and the sealing of the Holy Spirit both fall into the same category, that regeneration and the sealing transpire after one exercises faith. This includes being set apart (sanctified), justified, righteous, and indwelt all constitute the new nature of being born again or a New Creation.

The mainstream thought of my reformed brethren state that the regeneration includes being justified, sanctified, being made in a right relationship to God (righteousness), and being 'In Christ' but still are not yet saved until they believe. There is some difference of opinion as to when the indwelling actually occurs .

What I am arguing that we cannot be saved unless we are justified, sanctified, made righteous, and adopted as sons (born again). Thus salvation is simply a general term for all that goes into being saved, while regeneration is more specific as to what has transpired that makes a person saved. Therefore terms like born, born again/from above, new man all reflect the change which regeneration has created in the person establishing the salvation they have received of God.

To requote from my earlier post: