Regeneration: Is it a prelude to OR the Act of Salvation ~Born Again~

You guys will probably not agree with me, but I think the parable of the prodigal son shows what happens in salvation.

First, this young man repented while he was still in sin.

Luke 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

This fellow was still a sinner. He was living with the pigs. He was filthy. It says he "came to himself". He realized his sin had ruined his life and resolved to go back to his father, whom he believed to be merciful and would at least accept him back as a servant. This shows both repentance and faith.

Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

This is God's foreknowledge. He sees who will believe before they actually do. When the son was still a great way off his father saw him. This also shows God's willingness to forgive us even before we repent. We love him because he first loved us.

Luke 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

Here the son confesses his sin. Now we see three things happen here. First, the father calls for the best robe to be placed on him. This is the righteousness of Christ being imputed to him. It is covering his filth.

Next we see the ring, this is adoption or sonship.

Then we see the shoes on his feet. This may mean the new nature given to a man, it directs his way his walk. Or perhaps as shoes protect our feet, it shows God's preservation of the saint.

Here is Matthew Henry's take on this passage, just to show you that I am not out in right field on this.

 

Winman,

I most definitely believe that parable is about repentance and faith. It is an awesome parable. I believe that is a great picture of what it looks like when someone turns to Christ along with the character of God in the process as a loving Father with His arms open to everyone.

-everyone repents while they are still in sin because justification comes through faith.

-Everyone must come to themselves. this is where repentance and faith begin, in our hearts. When we see, hear, and understand in our hearts and turn then we are forgiven and all of heaven is in great joy.

- I dont want to get into the foreknowledge debate, there are probably hundreds of threads on it already and it wont go anywhere Im sure, hah.

 

Thanks for the info. That's good to know.

Im in the process ... I agree that we are stubborn in our views.

I see a spiritually dead person able but not able more than completely without the ability if that makes sense. It doesnt mean that the option isnt there, but that man on his own wont go there. To me its the opposite of Jesus in flesh. The option to sin was there, but He never heeded. It wasnt that He didnt have the ability, but that while He was able, He wasnt able by nature. I would agree with reformed men like Sproul that God's previous work entails faith, then justification, sanctification, etc... I just may disagree that regeneration is the work that God uses to cause these events.

Yea, Im not sure what Sproul means, but I would say that he probably means that there is no time gap between faith and God's justification. IOW the very instant we have faith we are also justified but yet faith chronologically precedes justification.

I wanted to examine all verses on rebirth again and then do it a second third and fourth time to make sure I am not missing something. :laugh: Oh and I want to keep my pride here and stay firm on my view even if it makes no sense.... jk

I knew I should have clarified. I didnt mean to come across as if justification, sanctification, adoption, and sealing didnt come after faith, but my main difference I was refering to here was regeneration.

Yea I agree being "In Christ" shows we are righteous and justified through faith in His work so those are after faith. I also agree that sanctification begins at faith, adoption, sealing, and cleansing. My thing is that I dont want to misread a Scripture trying to read something into it. I dont want to have a chronological argument from a couple of verses that might or might not be intended to be chronological in order. I am not disagreeing with you, but this is where I must spend time and come to a conclusion if possible.

Faith is the first gift then boom all of the other gifts flow from the very instant we turn to Christ. Its possible, but I dont buy it at this point.

If you have a compilation of verses regarding regeneration can you please post them?

 

Millard Erickson is not a Calvinist.

 

Do you believe that there are 4-point Arminians?

 

ALLAN:

I was doing a lesson for my Sunday school class and it was on Mathew 13:44. I didnt even get into regeneration, but I spoke on conversion. Anyway it made me think and here is my line of thinking-

1. Mathew 13:11 "For you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted."
A. God grants our understanding of His kingdom

2. Mathew 13:14-16 "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, "You keep on hearing, but will not understand; You will keep seeing, but not perceive; For the heart of this people has become dull, with their ears they scarcely hear, and they have closed their eyes, otherwise they would see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand in their heart and return, and I would heal them."
A. prophecy Isaiah 6
B. people can incline their heart and when they do this, it is God working in them. Its fair to instruct people to incline their heart to understanding and instruct that God will bless that, and at the same time is that the deeper truth is that it must be God who grants.
C. main message is to people who have grown dull and dont want to hear. namely the Jews who Isaiah is speaking of although I do think this applies to Jews and gentiles alike. Jews are clearly more hardened that gentiles because of the natural process of hardening that increases with denial of truth. Yet everyone is somewhere in this process before converted.
D. Notice the process that becomes before healing is that one must see, hear, and understand in his heart.

Mathew 13:44 "The Kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field."
A. kingdom is of utmost beauty and highest treasure there is
B. This is God Himself and His work including the gospel
C. It is hidden and must be found by men (Id assume because of sin)
D upon seeing this highest treasure the result is a newfound purpose in which one is sold out unto completely.

John 3:3 "truly I say to you unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God"
A. Jesus is saying that in order to see the kingdom spiritually we must be born again. This would not only include the Gospel and work of Christ but clearly Jesus Himself.

So here is my conclusion with these passages

A. If the first thing that must happen before turning to God one must, in his heart, see, hear, and understand God and this includes His kingdom.
B. If One sees, hears, and understands (finds the treasure) the kingdom, then he will sell all that he has (repentance/faith) and buy that treasure (turn his life over to it joyfully, etc)...
C. If one cannot see God's kingdom in his heart without being born again first then it seems as if being born again is a necessity before one sees it and turns to it.
D. If this seeing the kingdom is granted by God, then it is God who born's people )) again before they have repentance and faith. This would also mean that it is God who teaches people who come and who respond to His words (John 6:44-45).

 

it is a complete action of having spiritual understanding as a whole.

for those who have been given to know the secrets by God. This is my point there was a point in which the man saw something he previously didnt. So was it that God revealed it or did the man simply find it on his own.

It is something God does in a person in which they always respond. Again why do some see and some not see? It depends on God who chooses who sees what and when.

It is something God does in order to let the person begin to see the light that he never saw before. In this it must not mean that faith is necessary, but rather an unconditional work of God the Spirit.

Kind of a repeat, but God effectually reveals Himself in a person's heart. Much like showing a poor person a free gift of a million dollars.

I dont think Jesus is linking it in that way, He seems to be making a transition that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life just like what Moses did.

I said, "This is God Himself and His work including the gospel" Im sorry for my confusion, but was trying to say what you said. I would say God is the center of His kingdom and the foremost what we need to see.

To see the kingdom = born again and I would offer that the smallest to the greatest spiritual things are included. Can you see anything spiritually without being born again?

To enter the kingdom = born again + cleansing (justification).

If Jesus is clearly saying in order to see anything spiritual you must be born again. Is the internal understanding of the gospel spiritual? Then I must ask, do we have to understand the gospel before we can have faith?

I would also argue that Jesus is not linking seeing and entering as the same. Before you enter you must see and believe and be justified. But you cannot see unless you are born again and you cannot enter unless you are washed.

Titus 3:3- "For we were once foolish ourselves, disobedient, decieved, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.."

1. Paul is showing the work of God like Eph 2.
2. While we were completely hostile to God notice verse 3
3. then at some point God appeared (like Mathew 13:44) we never saw Him before
4. He saved us by His mercy and not by deeds or our good works
5. by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

My issue so far is that nowhere is Paul talking about us and our faith, although we are involved. He is showing the work of God in the doing. I have a hard time changing my view based on this passage because it is a tricky passage. You are automatically assuming that because he says washing of regeneration that he means that regeneration must be with justification (very possible I admit). The tricky part is the terminology seeming to imply that regeneration is the washing.

My big issue is how does a completely hostile and blind person see God like the bible explains? it has to be something God does effectual in a person. John is clear that God does something and people always come. So if you respond to anything on my post hit this point. How far does God go in our conversion, is it effectual or is it the same for everyone who hears?

I agree completely, but the issue is that they heard and they came. We do hear, but God does something that John speaks of and every single time those people He is doing it to hear and come.

 

Sounds good

 

So basically you are saying God has no control over who comes to Him (who believes)? Maybe connect it to my last question below.
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I will start in John 5:25, and we can agree to disagree.

An hour is coming when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

- You state that it is the dead hearing and believing, and all dead will hear.
- I say that these dead people that hear are the ones that God has caused to hear and understand and all of those dead that hear will live.
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John 6:37
"All the Father gives Me will come to Me..."
- I say God secretely wills and works out all aspects of peoples believing by His choice, yet we come and choose and we will not be cast out.

- Not sure how you see this passage
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John 6:44-45
"No one comes to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." "It is written in the prophets, 'And They Shall All Be Taught By God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me."

- I say God chooses and draws the elect and all those He draws comes and will never be cast out. I will also say that this connection is that those who are taught in their hearts or made to understand are those who come to the Son.

- Not sure what you say, but most use John 12 and say that God draws all unbelievers to Himself and convicts all. I agree that their can be a level of conviction (John 16) without election to unbelievers, although I dont think God draws all unbelievers to Himself because if He did then they would all be saved.
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Allan in all fairness, I am not jumping to the conclusion that a person is first born again, but I am overly convinced by numerous passages that God effectual calls and chooses. This is the way I see God working in numerous passages continually throughout salvation.

It is both God and man choosing each other, yet God being the primary cause rather than man. This doesnt mean people can and cannot reject the conviction of the Spirit of God, because I think God's Spirit can be resisted. I do not think an elect person can resist God's Spirit. All of us resisted God's Spirit for a long time and hardened our hearts, then when God came in and opened our hearts we stopped resisting.

I think of our initial conversion much like the continual process of sanctification. Phil 2:13 says "work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work within you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

This then reminds me of Acts 2:38-39

In verse 38 Peter tells them their responsibility to repent... and then says in verse 39 that this promise is for everyone who believes, but the ones who do are the ones that God is calling to Himself.

This in my opinion is just like how Jesus taught. In the same chapter He will call people to believe and that if they do they will be saved, while at the very same time He will tell them that it isnt them that are coming to God, but God drawing them in.

My point is that there is always 2 viewpoints of God's 1 will in Scripture. Mans viewpoint and God's. We dont see God's so it is easy to leave God out, although it is the primary cause of man's every decision.
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Romans 1 In my view is speaking to all men ever since creation being without excuse with or without the Law, God has made Himself known and this is the general revelation. This lines up perfectly with everyones state (depraved) before they believed the Gospel. See Ephesians 2 and Titus 3. Paul says we all once walked this way. And we all were depraved in different levels of hardness of heart. God is just to turn us all over to that life we lived, but at times He doesnt, like Paul. This is why I think in Romans 2 Paul speaks to everyone saying we are all without excuse, we cant look at people and say wow he is depraved without looking at ourselves and saying the same thing. Whether we worship idols of statues or money its all the same.
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Hbr 3:7 ¶ Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
Hbr 3:8 “do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness,:
Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hbr 3:16 ¶ For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
Hbr 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? [was it] not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
Hbr 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
Hbr 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

In my view it is possible for the words of the Holy Spirit to be do not harden your heart. In fact those are God's words everytime and if we dont harden our hearts then we will be blessed by God. This is our responsibility and yet God can also harden and unharden hearts. We see Pharaoh hardening and God hardening his heart. Thus we must obey God and not harden our hearts and yet it is Him willing and working within us. People defininetly can harden their hearts to God and ignore the conviction of the Spirit. This is paradoxical and in my opinion Scriptural. There are many degrees in which Scripture teaches and this is more of man's responisbility and with the flow of the author of Hebrews to write in this way. Much like Heberews Chapter 6, If we turn away from the faith then we are not saved and it is our responisibility while at the very same time when we are 100% working it is not us who endures to the end, but rather God preserving His sheep to the end. Do you see my connection here? This is why I say that God's sovereignty of our coming to Him must be the same type of work that continues throughout our lives in perseverance. Your looking at the call from the perspective of the author as if it denies that God is working in some and not others, when I think other areas of Scripture show that it is God working in some through the call to believe.
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You said, "I think it can only become tricky if it doesn't fit our personal views."
This is very very true, and when we do change it is relieving. So I was going to ask you to change- just kidding... It is also true to say that just because we force our views on certain passages does not mean our views are wrong, but our application of that particular passage.

You said, "your looking for something to help mold this into your view."

I am guilty of this in some of my posts above Im sure.

you said, "If a theology teaches a person who is spiritually dead can not hear and yet we see in scripture, from Jesus own teaching, the dead will hear. Then who should we believe? What should we do?"

I agree that our hearts must be faithful to the text rather than a theological camp. I believe this with all of my heart and it is very hard to do as you admitted. I am in a constant battle with this. Although I do disagree with your view of John 5:25 because if all of the dead hear, then they all have to live. And not all of them live as we know.

You said,"You seem to think something give to all the same can not effectually work on those whom God desires and have chosen. God has done all He has chosen to do, through bringing forth His word to world, His Son and He death for world, the Holy Spirit and His upon the world. Mans believing isn't left up to chance but God's work is specifically designed to bringing in all His chosen through faith."

Im not following here, can you expound a little more?

You say, "No sir, John never states that God does something that makes each one he does it to come. It ONLY states those who see AND will believe, or those who hear AND will learn.. will be saved. Nothing more and nothing less. Not once does it state only certain ones will see or hear nor that some change of disposition has taken place which makes them come.. The dead will hear .. and If you hear the Lord.. do not harden your hearts."

Fair enough, we will have to just disagree on this point.

 

My point was it doesnt seem that God can ultimately lead whomever He wants to Himself. It sounds like you are saying that God goes so far with everyone, then its up to them to believe. I could be wrong.

Truly Truly I say to you an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."

1- Jesus is stating that the time has come, now.
2- The dead here are spiritually dead.
3- Some have ears to here and some dont. Mathew 13
4- those who have ears (spiritual) will hear. "he who has ears to hear, let him hear."
5- Those who have spiritual ears and hear, will have eternal life and live.
6- I can switch up the words, "those who dont hear will not live." therefore not all people hear the spiritual message of Jesus.

verse 28 switches over from the "now" to the "future". He is going from spiritual life to the resurrection of judgment. It is true that in the end all will be at the judgment whether saved or not. This is not a parrallel with verse 25 because He states that all who hear will live in 25 and if everyone heard then everyone will live which isnt the case in verse 28.

ok, but how can this wrong-
1. All that the Father gives to the Son, come to the Son. And all those who come to the Son are saved.
2. Nobody comes to the Son unless drawn by the Father implying that the Father draws people to the Son.
3. draws and gives are both actions of the Father bringing people to the Son.
4. None who the Father bring to the Son are cast away.

So these people coming to the Son are chosen/elect. They are the ones that the Father has set aside from eternity past to give to the Son to die for. These are the ones the Son is going to die for. I know we disagree

Proverbs 1:24: God's voice goes out to everyone and He has His arms open wide, but nobody listens. So yes in a sense God longs for everyone and calls them, but unless they are drawn nobody comes because we are fools left alone. But the one who chooses to come has wisdom. The one who responds to God's call has been drawn. Yes this is much more than I would teach on this text, but I am showing you how I see harmony.

Yes Romans 10:21 is the same and is priceless. "All day long God stretches His hand out to disobedient and obstinate people (fools) which in Chapter 3 Paul shows is everyone. Nobody seeks God, Nobody cares to respond to His call (not effectual). We are are lost without God drawing us.

Mathew 22: God's voice goes out to everyone, we dont just tell the Gospel to the elect (of course this is God's secret), but everyone is extended the invite. Therefore many are called (not effectual) but few are chosen. This chosen is right in line with God's drawing and giving to the Son.

Your right that nobody is rejected the chance to respond to the Gospel, yet at the same time we are disobedient and obstinate people. In my view, as you know, if God left His call there then nobody would come. This is why it is ok for Him to elect a few, because we have all sinned and rejected God. Yes, on our own I believe we would refuse every day.

Here is the issue I see, here again I will lay out my premises
- Everyone who heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
- while those who come to Me I never cast out.

So everyone who hears, drawn, given by the Father are going to be saved and secured. Now according to John 6:45 you are wrong in your view b/c of the way John is speaking, IMO. You are saying everyone who has heard and learned from the Father doesnt come to Jesus when the verse says they do.

- Now I agree that God gives to everyone a gift of conscience and a certain extent of knowledge. I do think in regards to John 6 it is speaking of these people learning the Gospel because they are coming to Christ, where in Romans 1 it is a condemnation sentance. Now, we agree that we must seek God and we must choose Him, learn, and believe. Yes, we do disagree on the "why." I simply say without God nobody chooses to learn or believe, although we can.

I will remind that I am not set on regeneration preceding faith, as I think it is a minor aspect of the Doctrines of Grace.

The Gospel is offered to as many as can possibly hear. So yes the offer is universal. But I do not think God draws all men, elects all men, and effectually calls all men. Some He chooses to leave the call to them, in and of themselves, and others who would equally reject in and of themselves He teaches, draws, and gives them to the Son and they will be saved.

Sorry if I was unclear, I didnt mean they were or say they were. I do think that all who the Father calls effectually (Romans 8:28-30) will be justified etc... Those who He calls are the chosen. Whether His work makes regeneration the deciding factor (which you make good points in this area) or something else is undecided on my part.

Sorry if I was unclear, but I have never had an idea even close to this nor does any reformed believer. I would agree that no unbeliever is sealed/indwelt by the Holy Spirit until they believe in Christ. My point was that there is not a single person who ever lived that didnt reject God. Now some didnt reject the Gospel the first time they heard it. I personally blindly rejected the Gospel for 11 years of my life thinking I was a believer (I decieved myself). In line with my view, the point where we accept the Gospel is the point that God chose to open our hearts to understand the message, and our heart response was faith and repentance. In my case I was crushed.

 

Continue'd....

Yea, there is some bad logic I have no doubt, but good logic is a complete rounded view of theology as it works together, not leaving passages out or ignored. My view cannot be given with one verse, but as a whole with a compilation of verses I can show you. I see big similarities in how God preserves us from hor He called us to begin with. When we are doing good things according to His will it is always Him willing and working in us for His purpose.

God only effectually calls His elect. But Gods arms and hands are out to everyone who would come. So He calls everyone but only effectually calls the ones He chooses to save for His glory. Those He chose have nothing better about them than those He doesnt. I do not want to sound one sided, because again there are hundreds of passages that speak to and plead with people to choose life without speaking of God working in them.

Why do you think Peter said this in Verse 39 to those who He called to repentance- "as many as the Lord God will call to Himself"
Doesnt this imply like Mathew 22 that Peter is offering the gift to everyone, yet only a few come? And those who come are the chosen? many are called, but few are chosen or in this verse few are called effectually by God.

I dont disregard them, but state that those verses arent speaking of God effectually calling people. God does want and send messengers to billions, yet He only chooses a few of them and those who He chooses He Roman 8:30's them.