Regeneration or Conversion?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, May 2, 2003.

  1. Frogman

    Frogman
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    The first thing, then, that God the Holy Spirit doth in the soul is, to regenerate it. We must always learn to distinguish between regeneration and conversion. A man may be converted a great many times in his life, but regenerated only once. Conversion is a thing which is caused by regeneration, but regeneration is the very first act of God the Spirit in the soul. "What," say you, "does regeneration come before conviction of sin?" most certainly; there could be no conviction in the dead sinner. Now, regeneration quickens the sinner, and makes him live. He is not competent to have true spiritual conviction worked in him until, first of all he has received life. It is true that one of the earliest developments of life is conviction of sin; but before any man can see his need of a Saviour he must be a living man; before he can really, I mean, in a spiritual position, in a saving, effectual manner, understand his own deep depravity, he must have eyes with which to see the depravity, he must have ears with which to hear the sentence of the law, he must have been quickened and made alive; otherwise he could not be capable of feeling, or seeing, or discerning at all. I believe, then, the first thing the Spirit does is this—he finds the sinner dead in sin, just where Adam left him; he breathes into him a divine influence. The sinner knows nothing about how it is done, nor do any of us understand it. "Thou understandest not the wind—it bloweth where it listeth;" but we see its effects. Now, none of us can tell how the Holy Spirit works in men. I doubt not there have been some who have sat in these pews, and in the middle of a sermon or in prayer, or singing—they knew not how it was—the Spirit of God was in their hearts; he had entered into their souls; they were no longer dead in sin, no longer without thought, without hope, without spiritual capacity, but they had begun to live. And I believe this work of regeneration, when it is done effectually—and God the Spirit would not do it without doing it effectually—is done mysteriously, often suddenly, and it is done in divers manners; but still it hath always this mark about it—that the man although he may not understand how it is done, feels that something is done. The what, the how, he doth not know; but he knows that something is done; and he now begins to think thoughts he never thought before; he begins to feel as he never felt before; he is brought into a new state, there is a change wrought in him—as if a dead post standing in the street were on a sudden to find itself possessed of a soul, and did hear the sound of the passing carriages, and listen to the words of the foot-passengers; there is something quite new about it. The fact is, the man has got a spirit; he never had one before; he was nothing but a body and a soul; but now, God has breathed into him the third great principle, the new life, the Spirit, and he has become a spiritual man. Now, he is not only capable of mental exercise, but of spiritual exercise; as, having a soul before, he could repent, he could believe, as a mere mental exercise; he could think thoughts of God, and have some desires after him; but he could not have one spiritual thought, nor one spiritual wish or desire, for he had no powers that could educe these things; but now, in regeneration, he has got something given to him, and being given, you soon see its effects. The man begins to feel that he is a sinner; why did he not feel that before? Ah, my brethren, he could not, he was not in a state to feel; he was a dead sinner; and though he used to tell you, and tell God, by way of compliment, that he was a sinner, he did not know anything about it. He said he was a sinner; yes, but he talked about being a sinner just as the blind man talks about the stars that be has never seen, as he talks about the light, the existence of which he would not know unless he were told of it; but now it is a deep reality. You may laugh at him, ye who have not been regenerated; but now he has got something that really puts him beyond your laughter. He begins to feel the exceeding weight and evil of transgression; his heart trembles, his very flesh quivers—in some cases the whole frame is affected. The man is sick by day and night; his flesh creepeth on his bones for fear; he cannot eat, his appetite fails him. He cannot bear the sound of melody and mirth; all his animal spirits are dried up. He cannot rejoice; he is unhappy, he is miserable. downcast, distressed; in some cases, almost ready to go mad; though in the majority of cases it takes a lighter phase, and there are the gentle whispers of the Spirit; but even then, the pangs and pains caused by regeneration, while the new life discovers the sin and evil of the past condition of the man are things that are not to be well described or mentioned without tears. This is all the work of the Spirit.

    ~ C. H. Spurgeon in "The Work of the Holy Spirit"

    At the same time, this faith, wherever it exists, is in every case, without exception, the gift of God and the work of the Holy Spirit. Never yet did a man believe in Jesus with the faith here intended, except the Holy Spirit led him to do so. He has wrought all our works in us, and our faith too. Faith is too celestial a grace to spring up in human nature till it is renewed: faith is in every believer "the gift of God." You will say to me, "Are these two things consistent?" I reply, "Certainly, for they are both true." "How consistent?" say you. "How inconsistent?" say I, and you shall have as much difficulty to prove them inconsistent as I to prove them consistent. Experience makes them consistent, if theory does not. Men are convinced by the Holy Spirit of sin—"of sin," saith Christ, "because they believe not on me;" here is one of the truths; but the selfsame hearts are taught the same Spirit that faith is of the operation of God. (Col. ii. 2) Brethren be willing to see both sides of the shield of truth. Rise above the babyhood which cannot believe two doctrines until it sees the connecting link. Have you not two eyes, man? Must you needs put one of them out in order to see clearly? Is it impossible to you to use a spiritual stereoscope, and look at two views of truth until they melt into one, and that one becomes more real and actual because it is made up of two? Man men refuse to see more than one side of a doctrine, and persistently fight against anything which is not on its very surface consistent with their own idea. In the present case I do not find it difficult to believe faith to be at the same time the duty of man and the gift of God; and if others cannot accept the two truths, I am not responsible for their rejection of them; my duty is performed when I have honestly borne witness to them.

    ~ C. H. Spurgeon in "Faith and Regeneration"

    First, you have a description of its source. He says, "to them that have obtained like precious faith." See, then, my brethren, faith does not grow in man's heart by nature; it is a thing which is obtained. It is not a matter which springs up by a process of education, or by the example and excellent instruction of our parents; it is a thing which has to be obtained. Not imitation, but regeneration; not development, but conversion. All our good things come from without us, only evil can be educed from within us. Now, that which is obtained by us must be given to us; and well are we taught in Scripture that "faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God." Although faith is the act of man, yet it is the work of God. "With the heart man believeth unto righteousness;" but that heart must, first of all, have been renewed by divine grace before it ever can be capable of the act of saving faith. Faith, we say, is man's act, for we are commanded to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," and we shall be saved. At the same time, faith is God's gift, and wherever we find it, we may know that it did not come there from the force of nature, but from a work of divine grace. How this magnifies the grace of God, my brethren, and how low this casts human nature! Faith. Is it not one of the simplest things? Merely to depend upon the blood and righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ, does it not seem one of the easiest of virtues? To be nothing, and to let him be everything—to be still, and to let him work for me, does not this seem to be the most elementary of all the Christian graces? Indeed, so it is; and yet, even to this first principle and rudiment, poor human nature is so fallen and so utterly undone, that it cannot attain unto! Brethren, the Lord must not only open the gates of heaven to us at last, but he must open the gates of our heart to faith at the first. It is not enough for us to know that he must make us perfect in every good work to do his will, but we must be taught that he must even give us a desire after Christ; and when this is given, he must enable us to give the grip of the hand of faith whereby Jesus Christ becomes our Saviour and Lord. Now, the question comes (and we will try and make the text of today, a text of examination all the way through) have we obtained this faith? Are we conscious that we have been operated upon by the Holy Spirit? Is there a vital principle in us which was not there originally? Do we know today the folly of carnal confidence? Have we a hope that we have been enabled through divine grace to cast away all our own righteousness and every dependence, and are we now, whether we sink or swim, resting entirely upon the person, the righteousness, the blood, the intercession, the precious merit of our Lord Jesus Christ? If not, we have cause enough to tremble; but if we have, the while the apostle writes, "Unto them that have obtained like precious faith," he writes to us, and across the interval of centuries his benediction comes as full and fresh as ever, "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you."

    ~ C. H. Spurgeon in "Faith and Life"

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  2. rufus

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    Frogman, EXCELLENT POST!

    rufus [​IMG]
     
  3. romanbear

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    Hi Frogman;
    A quote from you;
    ----------------------------------------
    The first thing, then, that God the Holy Spirit doth in the soul is, to regenerate it.
    ----------------------------------------
    My Reply;
    Totally un true, not Biblical, No where does the Bible say that we are regenerated first.
    Quote fro C.H. Surgeon;
    ----------------------------------------
    It is not a matter which springs up by a process of education, or by the example and excellent instruction of our parents; it is a thing which has to be obtained. Not imitation, but regeneration; not development, but conversion.
    ----------------------------------------
    Totally untrue;
    We first have to be drawn by the Holy Spirit and indoctrinated by the hearing of the word. Which is education. We are not reborn or born again first This would mean that we are saved before we are saved. How absurd. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    From Spurgeon;
    ------------------------------------------
    "faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God."
    ------------------------------------------
    My Reply;
    Faith comes from the hearing of the word. and we hear just fine the things we want to hear.
    Romanbear
     
  4. Frogman

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    Here is an essential phrase you cannot reconcile with 'free Grace' yet by man's choice. Because of our condition (sinful nature) what do you imagine we 'want to hear'?

    How about what Scripture says:

    John 3.19-21

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  5. romanbear

    romanbear
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    Hi Frogman; [​IMG]
    You need to show biblical truth not speculation and illogical assumption.The things of God are foolishness to men. Maybe this is why IMHO you don't understand them. I'll try to help you but first you have to open up your heart, a decision only you can make.
    Romanbear [​IMG]
     
  6. Frogman

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    Just so everyone knows, the initial post is made of quotes from Brother C.H. Spurgeon. I appreciate the offer Romanbear, but I remain convinced that only the Lord can and does open the hearts of men.

    As far as Biblical proof versus 'assumption' answer the question in connection with your own assumption with which is provided Biblical proof from John 3. It is interesting to me to say the very least that brethren wishing to prove man's ability will disregard scripture, but cry the loudest when it is perceived that Sovereign Gracers are disregarding it.

    Again, I appreciate your offer of assistance, but I remain evremore a child of God By His Grace alone apart even from any hope, faith or repentance that might have been 'provoked' in me from the emotional whims of man and his like kind. I agree with Spurgeon, if you can show me that Romans 10.14 disproves Spurgeon or myself then you will have gone a long way at 'helping' God to 'open' my heart. ( Or even John 3 if you want to stay in context beginning with vs 1 and expounding the entire chapter by your Arminian view without jumping in and out of hedges, dodging rays of light and so on and so forth).

    God bless.
    Bro. dallas [​IMG]
     
  7. tyndale1946

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    Man wanders in dregs of depravity and is sucked down underneath the mire and its putrid hellish stench... He thinks he can reach out and obtain the untainable and feels he came to it by his own will... I am regenerated because I sought regeneration and was converted when I heard the truth!... Foolish sinful man... Who gave you the ears to hear?... The eyes to see?... The heart and soul to understand?... Did you make yourself for this world?... Are you the creator?... Then why do you say you are?... You did not create yourself for this world neither did you for the next... Comments by me!

    I love Spurgeon... What a great man of God... What insight... What truth... What light and beacon to show others what a great God we do have... Why others grope in the darkness Spurgeon is the torch and the reason why the darkness flees... Great Post! [​IMG] ... Brother Dallas... Brother Glen [​IMG] & [​IMG] Sister Charlotte [​IMG]
     
  8. Harald

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    While Spurgeon may have gotten many things right in his proclamation he still was off on a few crucial things. I know Old School Baptists who do not give much for Spurgeon and his ministry. Spurgeon was quite unclear if not heretical on justification, and that is a serious thing. He held to the Lutheran scheme on justification, which is also the mainstream Protestant and Evangelical scheme, which is held by pentecostals, charismatics, anglicans, lutherans, presbyterians etc. etc., and most modern day Baptists. The old Particular Baptists of England, the Gillite Particular Baptists, and the Gadsbyite Strict Baptists, and some American Baptist branches as well, did not hold to Spurgeon's scheme on justification, but to Paul's. Such Baptists will I lift off my hat to.


    Harald
     
  9. romanbear

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    Hi Frogman; [​IMG]
    A quote from you;
    --------------------------------
    appreciate the offer Romanbear, but I remain convinced that only the Lord can and does open the hearts of men.

    --------------------------------
    Frogman this is still not Biblical. Where does scripture say that God opens the door to our hearts.
    Romanbear [​IMG]
     
  10. Hardsheller

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    Romanbear....

    You asked - Where does scripture say that God opens the door to our hearts?

    How about - (Acts 16:14 KJV) And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
     
  11. KenH

    KenH
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    Could you please explain the difference? Thanks.
     
  12. Harald

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    KenH. I will try to explain. First I will quote Spurgeon. The quotes are from a sermon of his on justification. I do not recall the name right now. It was a few years ago I collected the quotes to my files, and did not think to mention the name of the sermon. But it should not be too hard to find out if need be. It is obvious from Spurgeon's words that he was in line with Luther on justification, whom I quote after CHS. After these two I will quote some of those Baptists that did not hold to Spurgeon's and Luther's scheme on justification, but to Paul's. Comparing the two parties it should become obvious to you what I mean. Some time ago on this C/A forum in a certain thread I challenged those who hold to the Lutheran (Spurgeonic/Evangelical/Protestant) scheme of justification to show where in the Old Testament can be found their teaching of justification by faith IN the Messias. If it is not in the OT it is not in the NT, cp. Rom. 3:21 and you know what I mean. For some reason no one appeared to respond to my challenge. Besides the non-Spurgeonite Baptists I here quote I could give many more, but this post is long enough as it stands. Emphasis in the quotes are mine.

    Spurgeon:

    "I mention this at the commencement of this discourse, because as this is the faith which came of Abram's calling, so also does it shine in his justification, and is, indeed, that which God counted unto him for righteousness."

    "Faith always justifies whenever it exists, and as soon as it is exercised; its result follows immediately, and is not an aftergrowth needing months of delay. The moment a man truly trusts his God he is justified. Yet many are justified who do not know their happy condition; to whom as yet the blessing of justification has not been opened up in its excellency and abundance of privilege."

    "If Abram, when full of good works, is not justified by them, but by his faith, how much more we, being full of imperfections, must come unto the throne of the heavenly grace and ask that we may be justified by faith which is IN Christ Jesus, and saved by the free mercy of God!"

    "Abram had no ceremonial in which to rest; he was righteous through his faith, and righteous only through his faith; and so must you and I be if we are ever to stand as righteous before God at all. Faith in Abram's case was the alone and unsupported cause of his being accounted righteous,"

    "We are made righteous ONLY BY AN ACT OF FAITH IN the work of Jesus Christ."

    "but our being righteous before God is not because of our holiness in life in any degree or respect, but simply BECAUSE OF OUR FAITH IN the divine promise."

    "I would have you note that the faith which justified Abram was still an imperfect faith, although it perfectly justified him"

    "If thou hast but the faith of a little child, it shall save thee. Though thy faith be not always at the same pitch as the patriarch's when he staggered not at the promise through unbelief, yet if it be simple and true, if it confide alone in the promise of God-it is an unhappy thing that it is no stronger, and thou oughtest daily to pray, "Lord, increase my faith"-but still it shall justify thee through Christ Jesus."

    "So far, then, all is clear, Abram was not justified by works, nor by ceremonies, nor partly by works, and partly by faith, nor by the perfection of his faith-he is counted righteous simply BECAUSE OF HIS FAITH IN the divine promise."

    "Faith justifies, but not in and by itself, but because it grasps the obedience of Christ.
    I do not wish to enter into controversy as to imputed righteousness this morning, we may discuss that doctrine another time; but we feel confident that this text cannot mean that faith in itself, as a grace or a virtue, becomes the righteousness of any man. The fact is, that faith is counted to us for righteousness because she has Christ in her hand; she comes to God resting upon what Christ has done, depending alone upon the propitiation which God has set forth; and God, therefore, writes down every believing man as being a righteous man, not because of what he is in himself, but for what he is in Christ. He may have a thousand sins, yet shall he be righteous if he have faith. He may painfully transgress like Samson, he may be as much in the dark as Jephtha, he may fall as David, he may slip like Noah; but, for all that, if he have a true and living faith, he is written down among the justified, and God accepteth him. While there be some who gloat over the faults of believers, God spieth out the pure gem of faith gleaming on their breast; he takes them for what they want to be, for what they are in heart, for what they would be if they could; and covering their sins with the atoning blood, and adorning their persons with the righteousness of the Beloved, he accepts them, seeing he beholds in them the faith which is the mark of the righteous man wherever it may be"

    END OF QUOTE

    Luther (from his Galatians commentary, Gal. 2:16 or thereabout):

    "We say, faith apprehends Jesus Christ. Christian faith is not an inactive quality in the heart. If it is true faith it will surely take Christ for its object. Christ, apprehended by faith and dwelling in the heart, constitutes Christian righteousness, for which God gives eternal life."

    "Here let me say, that these three things, faith, Christ, and imputation of righteousness, are to be joined together. Faith takes hold of Christ. God accounts this faith for righteousness"

    "A Christian is not somebody who has no sin, but somebody against whom God no longer chalks sin, because of his faith in Christ"

    "The true way of becoming a Christian is to be justified by faith IN Jesus Christ, and not by the works of the Law."

    "Here the question arises by what means are we justified? We answer with Paul, "By faith only IN Christ are we pronounced righteous, and not by works."

    END OF QUOTE

    Non-Spurgeonite Baptists:

    Gospel Standard Articles of Faith (1800's):

    7. We believe that the justification of God's elect is only by the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ imputed to them (Isa.14;24, 64;6. Jer.23;6. Mat.7;18. Luk.18;13. Acts.13;39. Rom.4;4-5&19, 10;4. 1Cor.1;30. 2Cor.5;21. Phil.3;9. Tit.3;5), without consideration of any works of righteousness, before or after calling, done by them, and that the full and free pardon of all their sins, past, present, and to come, is only through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of His grace. (Rom3;20-27, 4;22, 9;11. 2Tim.1;9. Heb.1;3, 4;22. 1Pet.3;18. 1Jon.2;1)

    Goat Yard Declaration of Faith 1729 (Gill's congregation):
    VII. We believe that the justification of God's elect is only by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, without the consideration of any works of righteousness done by them; and that the full and free pardon of all their sins and transgressions, past, present, and to come, is only through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of his grace.

    Individual non-Spurgeonite Baptists:

    ”In what way is a man made righteous before God? I answer; he is not made so by any good works proceeding from himself, by his prayers, duties, and obedience, or by his faith and love to the Lord”.
    - John Warburton, English Gadsbyite Strict Baptist (from the sermon ”The Righteous Glad in the Lord”, 1844)

    ”So nothing belonging to the poor soul can be his righteousness before God; it is not his humility and prayers, nor his love and faith, and communion with God that makes him so”. - ibid.

    ”So that those who are righteous before God are made so in Christ. They are a part of His mystical body, in union with the head; and all that Jesus is and has as the Head is imputed to and put upon them, the body, and here it is they stand everlastingly righteous before God. I know and am sure that when the soul is brought to know that he is righteous here, he does not want to be justified in any other way”. - ibid.

    ”Yet faith cannot satisfy justice nor merit the pardon of the least sin. Only Christ can do that. And that exposition that gives most glory to Christ and least to man, I believe is the truth.”
    - Samuel Richardson, English Particular Baptist (from the lengthy treatise ”Justification by Christ Alone”, 1647)

    ”Some being apt to conceive that there is no Justification of a creature in no sense before and without faith, and so make Faith a joint-partner with Christ in the business of Justification. For, indeed, this is to me a certain truth, that whatsoever gives a being to a thing must needs be a part of that thing which it gives being to, and therefore, if there be no Justification in no sense considered, but as it has respect to faith. It is much to be feared, that that opinion claimed a great share of that glory which is peculiar to Christ Jesus alone.”
    - William Kiffin, English Particular Baptist (from the foreword to the above treatise)

    ”The main and special thing the Apostle desired to know, and drove at in all his Preaching, was nothing else but "Jesus Christ and him crucified." And if the preaching of Christ in wisdom of words, the Cross of Christ might be made of no effect, 1 Cor. 1:17, much more do they make the death of Christ of no effect who will have any thing besides Christ alone to be their righteousness, in whole or in part”.
    - S Richardson (ibid.)

    ”The titles given to such persons whom Christ justified, they are termed sinners, enemies, ungodly, Rom. 4:5 and 5:8,10. The Scripture does not call any that are believers, ungodly. They have their name from their better part. Therefore, believers are called holy, Saints, living stones, babes in Christ. And, therefore, seeing they were justified when ungodly, they were justified before they believed. Their believing did not justify them. Christ justified many, by bearing their iniquity;” - ibid.

    ” They attribute righteousness in part to themselves, in attributing it to their believing.” -ibid.

    ”They make justification not to consist in pardon of sin, but in a work of obedience, viz.: their believing; and deny Christ to have satisfied Justice for the sins of the elect”. - ibid.

    ”They rob Christ of the greatest part of his work his glory, and give it to faith, and set faith in Christ's throne. And an hundred errors more may be reckoned up that will follow their opinion”. - ibid.

    ”Many Make Their Faith Into Their Salvation and Their God Many make a god of their believing, and depend upon it, and fetch all their comfort from it, and venture all their salvation on it.” - ibid.

    END OF QUOTING


    Harald
     
  13. BobRyan

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    The lost do not "wake up one morning and discover they are justified, forgiven, born again Christians. Then go seek out a Christian evangelist to tell them about the Gospel" as the Calvinist scenario at the start of this thread "proposes".

    Rather - the Lost - REMAIN lost while they HEAR the voice of Christ as He DRAWS them. They are to CHOOSE life by that drawing and so with Christ on the OUTSIDE they OPEN the door and let Him come in (Rev 3:20)- at that point they are BORN again and it is "no longer I who live but Christ who lives IN me". Gal 2:20

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ May 04, 2003, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  14. tnelson

    tnelson
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    John 3:3 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdon of God.

    Every Christian knows the truth of these words, but how often do we consider the order of the actions of "born again" and "see the king dom of God? By tradition it is taught that a person sees the kingdom of God, desires to enter into it, and then believes, resulting in regeneration. Yet, Jesus taught that the unregenerate person cannot even see the kingdom of God.

    John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, "You must be born again."

    The contrast between flesh and spirit, unregenerate and regenerat, spiritually dead and spiritually alive, is complete, making the new birth an absolute necessity. You must be born again.


    Mike
     
  15. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    That is very nice Bob but sorry I don't agree!... You say they and point to the other fellow... What are you going to do with these verses... As the they is you and I and everyone else on here?

    Romans 3:[9] What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

    [10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    [11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    [12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    How did the they become regenerated and coverted?... Did they have anything to do with it?... Question... Peter when thou art coverted strength the brethren... Wasn't Peter already regenerated when this commandment was given?... Why did he need conversion and who performed the work... Peter?... Brother Glen [​IMG] & [​IMG] Sister Charlotte [​IMG]
     
  16. Frogman

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    Amen!

    Here is a link:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=60;t=000346

    Bro. Dallas
     
  17. Frogman

    Frogman
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    I agree with your post brother Glen, I believe 'convert(ed)' has been abused by those who fear that God is not able to perform his work. I posted concerning what I believe about coverted and what it means, though I can't remember word for word, the word IMHO means to be brought back---meaning to a position from which one has moved away.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  18. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    Without regeneration, there can be no conversion. However, they are closely connected. Here is a good illustration. Conversion is like putting ice in the sun with the heat being regeneration. The sun melts the ice, but the changing from a solid to liquid is conversion. Scientists even use the word "conversion" to denote this change.
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    The verses I reference were Rev 3:20 and John 12:32. Christ stands OUTSIDE the door and knocks - "If ANY one hears AND OPENS the door I will then COME IN and dine with HIM". Christ DRAWS ALL mankind to him - The LIGHT shines in darkness - for Christ is the LIGHT that enlightens EVERY person. John 1.

    Seems to work as the Arminian model predicts it would.


    Romans 3:[9] What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

    [10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    [11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    [12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


    Certainly BOTH Calvinist and Arminian can agree - to the depravity of the sinful nature of man and the results of that nature APART from the DRAWING of Christ who DRAWS ALL mankind, who is the LIGHT that brings light to EVERY MAN, who stands OUTSIDE the door and knocks.

    Yes - they CHOSE life - because while LOST - while UNSAVED they HEARD AND OPENED the door and THEN Christ came in. While LOST they were ENABLED by the supernatural "drawing" of Christ - enabled to OPEN the door -- and Christ THEN came in.

    But there is no such thing as a born again - SAVED Christiant that does NOT have Christ "IN YOU the hope of glory" Colossians 1. So while Christ is standing OUTSIDE the door - they are ENABLED to open and then He comes IN.

    Peter had already CHOSEN Christ at that point EVEN when many other disciples were leaving Christ (See John 6 last half of chapter).

    Peter had ALREADY been filled with the Holy Spirit and had been given spiritual gifts and sent out to evangelize the lost (See Matt 10 first half of chapter).

    Christ was not dealing with "the LOST" in the text you cited.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Bob... Excuse me!... Have you ever heard of a dead man hearing the knock or opening the door?... I've heard of a regenerated man doing it as he is alive and not dead but a dead man never!... Read Ephesians 2:1 for further enlightenment... In fact read chapter one that emphasises the reason for the quickening... I might as well say it here I get tired of hearing about this pitiful Christ knocking at the sinner heart to be let in... The Calvinist and Primitive Baptist brethrens Christ would kick the door down!... Brethren that is my GOD!... Like I say to each his own!... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ May 04, 2003, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     

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