Regeneration

You said:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by exscentric:
"Based on your response I take it you say Chafer-Walvoord are advocating decisional regeneration."

You did not tell us if decisional regeneration is what I gathered you meant, so I can't really say one way tuther.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Say, this is getting difficult, and the two original questions have barely been dealt with yet. exscentric, at first you said, “Not sure what you mean by "decisional regeneration" - will assume you mean, as indicated, the regeneration is based on the decison for God. I'd say that is a fair estimation of Chafer's thought from the statement and not sure why you would suggest a "slipping in by some other name." as I think he was right up front with the statement.” Later, you said, “You did not tell us if decisional regeneration is what I gathered you meant, so I can't really say one way tuther.

In reply, What I mean is that Chafer-Walvoord are teaching decisional regeneration, when they say, “[Regeneration] ...is entirely a supernatural act of God in response to the faith of the man,” (Major Bible Themes; p 99; Chafer, Walvoord).

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

--------------
You running for political office, I still don't know for sure what YOU mean by decisional regeneration. I can assume all day but never know if I'm correct or not.

As to which is first and which is second, it is the chicken and then the egg.

If your are a reform person regeneration is first, faith second. If you aren't it is the other way around and I'd guess you know that so the point is............

 

Bob

I thought that I addressed the issue in my initial statement:

The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ. Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation and is now receptive to the ‘effectual call’ of the Holy Spirit. In regeneration God through the richness of His grace grants to His elect spiritual life so that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.[Ephesians 2:7]


However, to remove any doubt: "It is impossible for one who is spiritually dead in trespass and sins to exercize any faith toward God until they are REGENERATED by the Holy Spirit. Regeneration must precede faith. FAITH IS THE RESPONSE TO REGENERATION"

 

Exactly! Which was the point of my question. Why does Chafer make the statement he makes?

I haven't read Chafer so I can't tell you why he believed the way he did. His view is clearly Arminian. Man responds to God's grace with faith and repentance and God regenerates.

I do think that some folks do confuse salvation with regeneration. Salvation is the result of regeneration not the cause. But salvation nonetheless is conditioned (activated/received) on the basis of repentance and faith - a repentance and faith that God grants to those who are regenerated. Failure to understand this results in statements like Chafer's.

Man must repent and believe, and when he does, God saves! But Chafer called this "regeneration."

Bob said that Chafer understands the difference between salvation and regeneration. If so, what is the distinction between salvation and regeneration if one believes that regeneration follows repentance and faith? It seems to me that in this scenario, regeneration and salvation are two names for the same thing.

 

OldRegular, Amen to your post. Is Dagg's book widely available today?

Bob, Faith is a response to regeneration. A blind man cannot see until he is given sight, a dead cannot come forth unless he is given life. Which came first; Lazarus, in the tomb 4 days dead, wanting life or Jesus giving him life? This is not a "chicken/egg" thing.

 

The chicken came first. God created the chickens and then they laid eggs. To think differently is just plain nonsensical.

To believe that salvation comes before believing is just as nonsensical.

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

It does not say to wait until you get saved and then you will believe.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe

Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Joh 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive:...

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Believe first and then salvation
Faith first and then regeneration
Chicken first and then egg

 

Jesus answered him, "Truely, truely, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3 (ESV)

Unless you are regenerated, you cannot have faith.

 

"Here is more in support of faith being a response of regenration. Faith is a grace given in regeneration.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gill’s Body Of Divinity Volume II, p. 114.

“...[F]aith and repentance, which are graces given in regeneration....”

Gill’s Body Of Divinity Volume II, p. 119-120."

Try Biblical support
-------------
"Jesus answered him, "Truely, truely, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3 (ESV)

Unless you are regenerated, you cannot have faith."

That verse does not say what you say it says, thanks be to God.
-----------------
If you haven't read Chafer how can you be sure what he believes? How can you declare him Armenian from a sentance or two?

---

Even if Chafer believes what you say he believes it makes him different than your five points but does not make him Armenian, unless you count anything less than your five points armenian - and that would be a bit overkill for even a Calvinist

 

This is a classic example of failing to see a distinction between the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit and the effect - salvation.

Artimaeus is right when he argues that believing is necessary to being saved, but wrong when he equates salvation with regeneration.

God regenerates.
God grants the gifts of repentance and faith.
Man believes because he IS regenerated.
Man receives the gift of salvation.

The verses have already been cited.

Artimaeus needs to ask himelf two questions.

Why does man believe and repent?
Is regeneration different from salvation?

 

Exscentric said: That verse does not say what you say it says, thanks be to God.

Gill's commentary on Jn 3:3: "And by this phrase our Lord signifies, that no man, either as a man, or as a son of Abraham, or as a proselyte to the Jewish religion, can have any true knowledge of, or right unto, the enjoyment of the kingdom of God, unless he is born again; or regenerated, and quickened by the Spirit of God; renewed in the spirit of his mind; has Christ formed in his heart; becomes a partaker of the divine nature; and in all respects a new creature; and an other in heart, in principle, in practice, and conversation; or unless he be "born from above", as the word is rendered in Joh_3:31; that is, by a supernatural power, having the heavenly image stamped on him; and being called with an heavenly calling, even with the high calling of God in Christ Jesus: if this is not the case, a man can have no true knowledge of the kingdom of the Messiah, which is not a temporal and carnal one; it is not of this world, nor does it come with observation; nor can he have any right to the ordinances of it, which are of a spiritual nature; and much less can he be thought to have any true notions, or to be possessed of the kingdom of grace, which lies in righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost; or to have either a meetness for, or a right unto the kingdom of glory: though by the following words it seems, that the word is rightly rendered "again", or a second time, as it is by Nounus."

Matthew Henry on Jn 3:3, "[2.] The indispensable necessity of this: “Except a man (Any one that partakes of the human nature, and consequently of its corruptions) be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God, the kingdom of the Messiah begun in grace and perfected in glory.” Except we be born from above, we cannot see this. That is, First, We cannot understand the nature of it. Such is the nature of things pertaining to the kingdom of God (in which Nicodemus desired to be instructed) that the soul must be re-modelled and moulded, the natural man must become a spiritual man, before he is capable of receiving and understanding them, 1Co_2:14. Secondly, We cannot receive the comfort of it, cannot expect any benefit by Christ and his gospel, nor have any part or lot in the matter. Note, Regeneration is absolutely necessary to our happiness here and hereafter. Considering what we are by nature, how corrupt and sinful, - what God is, in whom alone we can be happy, - and what heaven is, to which the perfection of our happiness is reserved, - it will appear, in the nature of the thing, that we must be born again, because it is impossible that we should be happy if we be not holy; see 1Co_6:11, 1Co_6:12.

This great truth of the necessity of regeneration being thus solemnly laid down,"

Or did you think Jesus was speaking of a literal physical kingdom as Nicodemus did?

Arminians believe that it is the man's exercise of faith, will, decision that regenerates him, but a man cannot produce faith because he is dead in sin. Not weakened by sin, but dead. (Eph 2:1)This is why Chafer could be considered a "no-point Calvinist" because Calvinism draws primarily on "Salvation is of the Lord". Soli Deo Gloria.

 

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God asks us to believe Him, to choose Him. He does not ask us to choose between life or death because we already have death. He asks us to choose life. He does not ask us to believe Him or not believe Him because we already don't believe Him. He asks us to believe Him. If there is no choice then Christianity is a joke, this board is a joke, and we are all just playing a role in the biggest joke in the history of the world.

Yes, Salvation is being placed in a position of not going to hell. I am saved, rescued, placed in a position of safety from punishment. Regeneration is when our spirit which was dead in tresspasses and sins is turned into a spirit which is alive and plugged back into the ability to commune with God. They happen at exactly the same time. They are describing two of the facets of this new relationship with God (Justification, Righteousness, etc.). You cannot have regeneration without salvation and you cannot have salvation without regeneration. Faith is the God directed means of that happening. This is the way He set it up. It isn't that faith is so powerful, it is that God is so powerful. This is the way He said it would happen. No amount of convoluted reasoning will change that. No amount of trying to decide if this is Calvinism or Armenianism, or if it agrees with an author or commentator will change that. God laid out the order. If we believe Him, He will accomplish it. If we do not believe Him, He will not.

 

Exscentric said: That verse does not say what you say it says, thanks be to God.

Gill's commentary on Jn 3:3: "And by this phrase our Lord signifies, that no man, either as a man, or as a son of Abraham, or as a proselyte to the Jewish religion, can have any true knowledge of, or right unto, the enjoyment of the kingdom of God, unless he is born again; or regenerated, and quickened by the Spirit of God; renewed in the spirit of his mind; has Christ formed in his heart; becomes a partaker of the divine nature; and in all respects a new creature; and an other in heart, in principle, in practice, and conversation; or unless he be "born from above", as the word is rendered in Joh_3:31; that is, by a supernatural power, having the heavenly image stamped on him; and being called with an heavenly calling, even with the high calling of God in Christ Jesus: if this is not the case, a man can have no true knowledge of the kingdom of the Messiah, which is not a temporal and carnal one; it is not of this world, nor does it come with observation; nor can he have any right to the ordinances of it, which are of a spiritual nature; and much less can he be thought to have any true notions, or to be possessed of the kingdom of grace, which lies in righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost; or to have either a meetness for, or a right unto the kingdom of glory: though by the following words it seems, that the word is rightly rendered "again", or a second time, as it is by Nounus."

Matthew Henry on Jn 3:3, "[2.] The indispensable necessity of this: “Except a man (Any one that partakes of the human nature, and consequently of its corruptions) be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God, the kingdom of the Messiah begun in grace and perfected in glory.” Except we be born from above, we cannot see this. That is, First, We cannot understand the nature of it. Such is the nature of things pertaining to the kingdom of God (in which Nicodemus desired to be instructed) that the soul must be re-modelled and moulded, the natural man must become a spiritual man, before he is capable of receiving and understanding them, 1Co_2:14. Secondly, We cannot receive the comfort of it, cannot expect any benefit by Christ and his gospel, nor have any part or lot in the matter. Note, Regeneration is absolutely necessary to our happiness here and hereafter. Considering what we are by nature, how corrupt and sinful, - what God is, in whom alone we can be happy, - and what heaven is, to which the perfection of our happiness is reserved, - it will appear, in the nature of the thing, that we must be born again, because it is impossible that we should be happy if we be not holy; see 1Co_6:11, 1Co_6:12.

This great truth of the necessity of regeneration being thus solemnly laid down,"

-----------
Ahh, the comments of men move me to reject the Bible in favor of calvinism, that seems to be the course of action here.

NOT!

"Or did you think Jesus was speaking of a literal physical kingdom as Nicodemus did?"

Didn't think that at all, just observed you'd have to read a lot between the lines to get the verse to say what you say it says.
----------
"Arminians believe that it is the man's exercise of faith, will, decision that regenerates him,"

True, I'd guess, though not proven as yet.
------------
"but a man cannot produce faith because he is dead in sin."

Hummm, again not proven, seems any lost person getting on an airplane has faith that it will fly, so I think they can have faith in their lost and miserable state.

"Not weakened by sin, but dead. (Eph 2:1)"

Yep, and I don't think I have suggested anything to the contrary so not sure why you elaborated on the point.
----------
"This is why Chafer could be considered a "no-point Calvinist"

Ahhh now you have chosen your words wisely, "could" be considered, but that is an opinion of yours not his - again you presume to know his mind and I doubt you do.

It's either or with you it seems, so not much reason to continue the discussion with a closed mind because chafer and many others do not exist - in your mind at least
---------
"because Calvinism draws primarily on "Salvation is of the Lord". Soli Deo Gloria."

Ahh something we can agree on and I'd guess Chafer would agree as well, even though he is an arminian, by your estimation

 

FYI

Chafer's Systematic Theology; Vol. III; P. 206: "Respecting the theme now under consideration, no words of Scripture more accurately or completely describe the destiny-determining truth that God is the Author, Executor, and Consummator of man's salvation than Jonah 2:9 and Psalm 3:8. These texts assert: 'Salvation is of Jehovah' and 'Salvation belongeth unto Jehovah.'"

A bit later on the same page, "The gospel preacher should ever be on his guard lest by so much as an inference or intimation he violate or contradict the transcendent revelation that salvation is of Jehovah."

To save you some thumbing:

Jonah 2.9 "... Salvation [is] of the LORD."

Psalm 3.8 "Salvation [belongeth] unto the LORD...."

 

Exscentric: Ahh something we can agree on and I'd guess Chafer would agree as well, even though he is an arminian, by your estimation

Me: One of my beloved friends is an Arminian and I really gave it the benefit of doubt, but, as Luther said, "my conscience is captive to the Word of God".

I use words like "could" because I know my theology is not perfect, however a "most likely" would have been a better fit.

Yes, the men I quoted are Calvinists, but well-respected for their writings on His Word.