Relationship of Jn 6:44-45 with 6:64-66

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Dr. Walter, May 24, 2010.

  1. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
    66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.


    Notice that verse 65 is sandwiched between verses 64 and 66 for good reason. In verse 64 Jesus explicitly reveals that He knew who the real unbelievers were among his professed disciples - "some of you believe not." In verse 66 these are the ones that "went back." They went back upon their profession. The "walked no more with him" and demonstrated their profession had been empty.

    Now, verse 65 is the explanation that Christ gives for why they did not believe and why they went back on their profession and walked with him no more.

    In verse 65 the words "therefore said I unto you" has direct reference to John 6:44 and the statement that no man can come to Christ but those drawn by the Father, and those will not "draw back" or "walk with him no more" because "him" that is drawn is "him" that Christ promises to raise up again at the last day.

    Furthermore, in verse 65 Jesus replaces the words "draw him" by the words "given unto him." What is it that the Father has to give unto him so that he will not draw back and walk no more with Christ?? What is it that Jesus explicitly states is missing in those mentioned in verse 64??? "some of you BELIEVE NOT." The ability to believe savingly unto the end is what is missing and that is what must be "given unto him of the Father." All others have false professions empty of genuine saving faith as that is the "work of God" (v. 29) performed by God WITHIN man.

    This is the simple and obvious truth of this context. Judas was included in the group of unbelievers. However, Judas continued to walk with Christ in order to fulfill the Old Testament prophesy, not because he was a believer for Christ said he was a "devil" long before his betrayal.

    To be drawn by Christ in the sense of John 6:44-45 is to be "given" by the Father true saving faith and all that are drawn or given such are raised to eternal life.

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


    Jesus makes it clear that the terms"draw him" in verse 44 is inclusive of something being "given unto him" and what is missing among those listed in John 6:64 is true belief in Christ. Hence, what must be "given unto him" is the ability to believe in Christ.
     
    #1 Dr. Walter, May 24, 2010
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  2. HankD

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    I don't think many would debate that point Dr. Walter.

    What is His criteria for those choosen to receive this ability might be the more focused question?

    Surley God doesn't choose willy-nilly as if by the toss of a coin but...

    Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated
    according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    The foundational premise: we are totally powerless to save ourselves.
    It would also seem that this choice is a metaphysical thing, outside of time, from the foundation of the world.

    But we are not told the details of that counsel apart from how it is worked out in the time continuum.

    John 1
    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​

    It would seem that it would have something to do with each of us individually else He would choose all.
    Obviously the choice is not based upon any goodness of our own.

    Without any bias towards the Institutes, What are the possible choices?

    Tempered by the foundational premise, what might the details of that choice be assuming we are capable of understanding the transaction of election.

    His choice has to do entirely with Him and within Him and nothing to do with what He sees in us individually.

    His choice depends upon a mutually shared transaction (a covenant between He and I).

    His choice has to do entirely with something He sees within us individually (assuming the foundational premise).

    Something else - e.g. We can't possibly understand it.

    HankD
     
    #2 HankD, May 25, 2010
    Last edited: May 25, 2010
  3. Dr. Walter

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    HankD,

    This passage does not deal with God's motive for drawing who He draws, it only defines what it is to be drawn. To "draw him" is to give unto him something that is missing in John 6:64. What is missing in those described in verse 64?
     
  4. HankD

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    OK, well you already answered it - belief.
    My assumption is, if possible, you may have wanted to go further into speculative theology as this is a debate forum.

    HankD
     
  5. Dr. Walter

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    When anyone admits that to be drawn by the Father is to be given belief in Christ and that those in verse 64 were not given that of the Father, then that necessarily means those in verse 64 were not drawn by the Father in the sense and definition of being drawn discussed in this passage. That in and of itself is a declaration of unconditional election by the Father in choosing who is drawn and who is not since "belief" cannot be the cause for election but the consequence.
     
  6. HankD

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    OK then my quasi-challenge stands:

    Since we are not given the details of the architecture of predestination, many would disagree with "Unconditional Election".

    The condition being "after the counsel of His own will".

    Which, according to the various theologies here at the BB, may or may not be in line with your statement because the criteria of choice is not given.

    Generally speaking, the subscriber of the teaching of Arminius would say that God saw that the individual would believe if given the ability to believe. That is, he has the "want to" but not the ability or wherewithal.

    Generally speaking, the subscriber of Calvin would say that we have neither the will or the ability and we must be infused with both.

    Personally, I don't subscribe to either of these men in totum.

    However, if backed into a corner with a gun to my head I would probably be more inclined to number 2.

    I have often suspected that its something more and/or different than number 2 and that it is beyond my cognitive abilities.

    I do like to ask cavinists to take a guess at the criteria that the Father uses (or used) to make His choice in the realm of election/predestination.

    Obviously the motive is love. For God so loved the world...

    HankD
     
  7. Dr. Walter

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    If you are forced to agree that those in verse 64 were not given the ability to believe in Christ, thus not drawn by the Father and the others were given that ability and thus drawn by the Father that is unconditional election because the Arminian position is that the cause for election is foreseen belief in some and not by others. However, the definition of drawn in John 6 denies it is a condition for election because God chooses who to give faith unto and who He will not give faith unto. Therefore since election cannot be based upon foreseen conditions as the condition itself is determined by God's choice and He does not choose to give it to all men indiscrimately.

    as the ability to believe is CAUSED by God rather than something foreseen by God as the cause of election.
     
  8. HankD

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    Even if the choice is not conditioned upon forseen circumstances (foreknowledge) but caused by God (which is my inclination), this still does not reveal the criteria used by our Father for the choice apart from the Scripture concerning the counsel of His own will.

    counsel: Strongs 1012 counsel, purpose.

    Whatever suits His purpose is as close to a criteria as we can come I suppose. Yes even those who are left to their own devices suit His pupose (after all He could have saved everyone):

    Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.​


    I still don't dismiss foreknowledge completely as applicable to God as the Scripture confirms it's actuality.

    Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:​

    A passage which arminians could/would point to as confirming the fact of the foreknowledge of God, though unrelated to "drawing" would prove that it is at least possible.

    Apart from that and as an aside, I admit a difficulty in my own reasoning power as to how the "foreknowledge" (prognosis) of this passage in Acts is integrated into the concept of the absolute sovereignty of God.

    Even if prognosis is defined as pre-arrangement the nuance of "pre-arrangement" hints at the idea that circumstances were altered or manipulated by God to fit His purpose.

    But I take comfort in this passage:

    Ecclesiastes 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.​

    But as to the O/P, though I generally agree with your thoughts, I would rather simply say that they would not believe rather than they could not believe.

    HankD
     
    #8 HankD, May 26, 2010
    Last edited: May 26, 2010
  9. webdog

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    You have used an absolute truth statement's converse as absolute truth...which is not necessarily true.

    Your argument: all those that come to Christ are drawn (given) by the Father (absolute truth)
    Your conclusion: those that do not come to Christ were not drawn (given) by the Father (the converse...not absolute truth)

    This is similar to me giving you the absolute truth statement "everyone who attends my church loves chicken", and you coming to the conclusion that if someone does not attend my church they do not like chicken. The logic and truth of the statement is not guaranteed.
     
  10. Dr. Walter

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    I agree with you He chose the elect according to pleasure of His own good will.


     
  11. Dr. Walter

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    That is not my argument! My argument is:

    All that are drawn (given) to Christ come/believe to Christ: All the Father does not draw (give) to Christ do not come/believe to Christ.
     
  12. webdog

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    Neither of those arguments can be supported by the text, you have to approach it with that presupposition. The use of Moses lifting up the pole with the serpent does not support that conclusion either.

    At any rate, I believe it is a matter of semantics, and the inverse of an absolute statement is not necessarily true as well. I do not see much if any difference in what I thought your argument was and what you state it is. If they are not drawn, they won't come...and if they do not come, they were not drawn is the same thing.
     
    #12 webdog, May 26, 2010
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  13. HankD

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    A better analogy and a better way of putting it would be a Kentucky Fried Chicken stand.

    Only those who were predisposed to liking chicken would be drawn to the KFC place, the others would pass on by and go to Arby's.

    HankD
     
  14. Dr. Walter

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    If the first argument can be proven the second argument is a necessary conclusion. The first argument can be easily proven as I have already done in my initial post which no one yet has been able to disprove. Jesus explicitly said to his disciples that the very reason "some" of them did not believe in him (Jn. 6:64) is precisely because it was "not given to" them to believe in him by the Father (Jn. 6:65). The term "given unto him" is descriptive of the early words "draw him." Jesus is explicitly telling these unbelievers that the Father did not draw them and that is why they don't believe in him, therefore, in order to believe in him it must be "given unto" them to believe or the Father must "draw him."

    Therefore to "draw him" means to "give unto him" (come) belief in Christ. If the Father does not draw they do not believe in Christ (come). If they do not believe in Christ it is because the Father did not draw (give unto) them belief in Christ (come).

    Can't get it more simple than that! Therefore my arguments are demanded by the very language of Christ in these passages:

    1. Drawing to Christ = giving faith in Christ, thus all draw have faith in Christ.
    2. Coming to Christ = faith in Christ = all coming believe in Christ
    3. ALL the Father does not draw/give faith do not come/beleive in Christ - vv. 64-65
    4. ALL the Father draws/gives faith in Christ believe in Christ/come.
     
  15. Winman

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    This is where you make your error. Jesus is clearly speaking of God's word in chapter 6.

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


    Here Jesus says no man can come to him unless the Father draws him. But then he explains how this drawing is accomplished. It is accomplished through the word of God. Those who hear, are taught, and believe God's revelation to man, the scriptures, will come to Jesus.

    Jesus says this again in verse 63.

    John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
    64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


    Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    A person is not regenerated to have faith, and that can easily be demonstrated from the scriptures.

    John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

    Calvinism teaches regeneration or life precedes faith, but John 5:40 proves otherwise. A person must first believe and come to Jesus to have life. And no man comes unless he was drawn and taught by the scriptures.

    John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    These are written. What is written? The scriptures, the word of God, God's revelation to man. This verse shows you must hear and believe God's word to have life. So, faith must precede regeneration.

    This is shown so many times in scripture, but Calvinists conveniently overlook it.

    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    Does Jesus say the living (regenerate) shall hear the voice of the Son of God? No. He says the dead, the unregenerate shall hear his voice (the scriptures), and those that hear shall live. This means those who sincerely listen to, take heed, and believe his words.

    Quit listening to the teachings of men, and listen to the scriptures.
     
    #15 Winman, May 26, 2010
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  16. jbh28

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    not unless it has a verse that says no one can come unless drawn, that would see to indicate that his presumption is true.
     
    #16 jbh28, May 26, 2010
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  17. jbh28

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    agreed, that is how God draws his elect to Him, through the Word of God.


    the rest of your quote has another thread it can be discussed in. Regeneration before faith. http://baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=65844
     
  18. Dr. Walter

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    Look, your simply not dealing with the texts honestly. John 6:45 does not say it is accomplished through the Word of God but rather by God Himself. "taught OF GOD....learned OF THE FATHER." You are inserting into this text what it does not say and does not mean. The subject is not the Word of God but God Himself teaching the person. Thousands hear the Word of God every day and they remain unchanged but this verse has to do with God Himself doing the teaching within a man.

    John 6:63 is not given as the CAUSE for faith in Christ as you demand. The CAUSE has already been defined as "draw" in verse 44 and again redefined as "given unto him" in verse 65. Jesus does not say

    Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except HE BELIEVES THE WORD that is preached.

    Jesus is defining the CAUSE for unbelief in Christ in verse 65 by professed disciples in verse 64. It is not "given unto" them. The Word of God had been given unto them so it cannot refer to the word of God. The words "given unto him" have no application, make no sense unless it refers to what Christ just explained that was MISSING in "some" in verse 64. They all had HEARD the Word of God but yet they possessed no INWARD ABILITY TO BELIEVE WHAT THEY HEARD.

    I might add, this is your problem as well. God has not yet given you INWARD ABILITY to believe His Word on this subject and until He does you won't.



     
    #18 Dr. Walter, May 26, 2010
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  19. Winman

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    Give me a break, you are in total denial here. How did you learn the gospel? Were you walking around totally ignorant of the gospel and were suddenly regenerated by the Holy Spirit to have this knowledge?

    I don't know about you, but I learned the gospel by hearing it preached from the scriptures and reading it for myself in the Bible.

    If God had not revealed himself through the centuries by prophets, not one person on earth today would know about Jesus. And if you do not know about Jesus it is impossible to trust him as your Saviour.

    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Does Paul mention being regenerated by the Holy Spirit here? No, not one word to that effect. How careless and negligent he must have been if your doctrine is true.

    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Does Paul say here you have to be regenerated to believe? No. He says you must hear the word of God. And this is in perfect agreement with what Jesus said in John 6.

    John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    Does Jesus say here a man must be regenerated to come to him? No. He says you must hear, and learn of the Father. Well, how does a man hear and learn from the Father? The scriptures of course.

    2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    Did Paul say Timothy was regenerated to have faith in Jesus here? No, he said Timothy knew the scriptures from a child and was made "wise" unto salvation. Again, this is in perfect agreement with Jesus's statement in John 6:45.

    You guys just don't get it, the scriptures are God's method to speak to man. Faith comes from knowledge given by the Father through the scriptures. You want it to be some magical, mysterious process, this is nothing but pure mysticism taught by the Catholic church from whence Calvinism came.
     
  20. Dr. Walter

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    What you are missing and I might add distorting in all these references is the distinction between the efficient cause and the instrumental cause. Jesus did not request the goal defined in John 17:17 to be accomplished by YOU or any HUMAN. He is addressing God as the CAUSE or ACTOR that accomplishes sanctification through the instrumentality of His Word. God is the efficient cause while His Word is the instrumental cause of sanctification. Remove God and the Word does not accomplish this task. Paul says that the Word of God is the Sword of the Spirit not the Sword of you or me. The Holy Spirit is the efficient Cause or Power that weilds the Sword and if you remove Him the Sword lies dormant. The Sword is the INSTRUMENTAL cause in dividing and cutting assunder things (Heb. 4:12) but it is God who is the EFFICIENT Cause or enabler (Heb. 4:13).

    In John 6:44-45 and John 6:64-65 Jesus is speaking about the EFFICIENT CAUSE which is "GOD" without consideration of any instrumental causes. It is God Himself doing the teaching. Those defined as "some" who did not believe in Him had the Word already "given unto" them but they still did not believe in Christ. In verse 65 Jesus is speaking of something that was not "given unto" them of the Father and that was to savingly believe in him.

    To "draw him" in verse 44 is equal to "give unto him" in verse 65. What must be given unto him in verse 65 is what is MISSING in "some" in verse 64 - to believe savingly in Christ. To beleive in Christ is the work of God (Jn. 6:29) defined as being drawn in John 6:44 which is further defined as effectual teaching that concludes in coming to Christ by ALL who are so taught by God in verse 45. They are "ALL" taught by God and EVERYONE thus taught Jesus says comes to him in verse 45b.

    There is no mention of INSTRUMENTAL means because INSTRUMENTAL means is not the PRIMARY CAUSE for anyone coming to Christ.

    All your arguments and every Biblical text you use reverses cause and effects or replaces primary causes with instrumental causes.


     

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