Religion From Politics

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Revmitchell, Jul 20, 2006.

  1. Revmitchell

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    It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible. Do not ever let anyone claim to be a true American patriot if they ever attempt to separate Religion from politics.

    George Washington


    What say you?
     
  2. Daisy

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  3. Martin

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    ==Washington made many statements on religion (etc) in various places. His farewell address contains a very strong statement on the need of religion in the public square. The idea that is very popular among some historians, that Washington was a deist, is laughable. Either they don't know what a deist is, or they have not done their homework on Washington. I think the former is probably more likely than the later.
     
  4. Daisy

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    Then why not use a real one instead of a fake one?

    Ok, what? I haven't memorized it, so can you provide the statement you're referring to?

    What is a deist?
     
  5. Revmitchell

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    Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness - these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

    George Washington

    http://www.pixi.com/~kingdom/wash.html
    http://www.worldofquotes.com/docs/31/index.html
     
    #5 Revmitchell, Jul 20, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2006
  6. genesis12

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    I'm aware that for centuries we have used the word "religion" when we mean Christianity. Since the two are incompatible, I would hope that organized religion would be forever separated from politics. On the other hand, I would pray that Christianity would be the heart of our political intercourse.
     
  7. Martin

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    ==I did not post the first quote and, in fact, I have not taken the time to investigate it. Therefore I can't answer that question.

    == Click on the quote to read the entire message...

    "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens."

    ==Good question. I will quote Norman Geisler on this since he provides a good explanation...

    "Deism holds with theism that God created the world but denies his supernatural intervention in it on the grounds that the world operates by natural and self-sustaining laws of the Creator." -"Christian Apologetics, pg151

    It can be shown that Washington did not hold to a deistic worldview. For example in a letter to Joseph Reed he said, "If I shall be able to rise superior to these and many other difficulties, which might be enumerated, I shall most religiously believe, that the finger of Providence is in it, to blind the eyes of our enemies; for surely if we get well through this month, it must be for want of their knowing the disadvantages we labour under"- George Washington, 1/14/1776

    That quote, and others, shows that Washington believed that God (Providence) was able and willing to act in time thus contradicting a deistic worldview. No deist would believe that God would intervene in the affairs of mankind.
     
  8. LadyEagle

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    Excellent post, Genesis12. :thumbs:
     
  9. The Galatian

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    The quote is something like something Washington actually said, but it has been "improved" a bit. I would be interesting in knowing where this was found.
     
  10. Alcott

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    A deist is an atheist who has not developed an alternative explanation for the existence of matter, energy, and life.
     
  11. StraightAndNarrow

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    Washington was a nominal Episcopalian but never took communion and rarely attended church. In fact, his true beliefs were deist.
     
  12. Martin

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    I would not disagree with the first part of that statement. However considering Washington's statements about his belief in the actions of Providence in time, which is totally inconsistant with a deistic worldview, I would disagree with your conclusion about Washington's "true beliefs". In my view the only way someone can conclude that Washington was a deist is to say that Washington was a hypocrite and a liar. While such would not be impossible it is certainly not a conclusion I am comfortable with.
     
  13. StraightAndNarrow

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    What would you classify him as given that he refused to take communion and wasn't considered an official "communicant" (full-fledged adult church member)?

    Deist might be generous. Perhaps agnostic?
     
  14. Revmitchell

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    Someone doesnt attend church so they are a deist?

    Deists do not make such statements as Washington did. They dont believe that way.
     
  15. Revmitchell

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    Washington's "Earnest Prayer"

    The Prayer below was written by Washington at Newburgh, New York, at the close of the Revolutionary War on June 14, 1783. It was sent to the thirteen governors of the newly freed states in a "Circular Letter Addressed to the Governors of all the States on the Disbanding of the Army."
    Circular Letter Addressed to the Governors of all the States on the Disbanding of the Army, June 14, 1783

    I have thus freely declared what I wished to make known, before I surrendered up my public trust to those who committed it to me. The task is now accomplished. I now bid adieu to your Excellency, as the chief magistrate of your State, at the same time I bid a last farewell to the cares of office and all the employments of public life.
    It remains, then, to be my final and only request that your Excellency will communicate these sentiments to your legislature at their next meeting, and that they may be considered the legacy of one, who has ardently wished, on all occasions, to be useful to his country, and who, even in the shade of retirement, will not fail to implore the divine benediction on it.
    I now make it my earnest prayer that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection; that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow-citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for brethren who have served in the field; and finally that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind, which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy nation.

    http://www.ushistory.org/valleyforge/washington/earnestprayer.html
     
  16. Revmitchell

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    “He was a sincere believer in the Christian faith and a truly devout man.”
    {Quote by John Marshall [SIZE=-1][Revolutionary General, Secretary of State, U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice]}[/SIZE]
    "To the character of hero and patriot, this good man added that of Christian. Although the greatest man upon earth, he disdained not to humble himself before his God and to trust in the mercies of Christ.”
    {Quote by Gunning Bedford, signer of the Constitution}
    “The name of American, belongs to you…[and] with slight shades of difference, you have the same religion.” --George Washington in his Farewell Address to the American people, Paragraph 10; September 17, 1796 | photo of farewell address
    “What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”
    --George Washington in a speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779
    "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible."
    "It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors."

    "Is it necessary that any one should [ask], “Did General Washington avow himself to be a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country." {Quote by Nelly Custis-Lewis, Washington's adopted daughter}

    http://www.eadshome.com/GeorgeWashington.htm

     
  17. Revmitchell

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    A Portion of George Washington's personal prayers:
    “O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
    “ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”

    "Make me to know what is acceptable in Thy sight, and therein to delight, open the eyes of my understanding, and help me thoroughly to examine myself concerning my knowledge, faith, and repentance, increase my faith, and direct me to the true object, Jesus Christ the Way, the Truth, and the Life, ..."
    [from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752]


    http://www.eadshome.com/GeorgeWashington.htm
     
  18. Revmitchell

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    He who shall introduce into public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will revolutionize the world. - Benjamin Franklin
    [FONT=Verdana,Arial][SIZE=-2]Worthy Quotes presented by the Worthy News.[/SIZE][/FONT]​
     
  19. ASLANSPAL

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    Mitchell and Martin trying to fit round peg in square hole

    This right wing religious nut jobs are trying to hijack the founding fathers is obvious via the nut job David Barton and the like.

    George Washington was enlightened and very reasoned but he never would have bought into the killer bee religion of today which is based on fear and revisionism.

    I have posted many times the belief that reconstructionism and theocracy will find root in this country because it means "POWER" and shoving beliefs down peoples throats even to the escalation of killing those who do not believe the way they do. It is a bully tactic to try and re invent Washington ...Mitchell you forgot to mention that this is a 1919 authored
    document that has been discounted for decades ..but nooooooooo! you want to pass it off as something new...baloney and (personal attack deleted).
    There is no "George Washington's Prayer Journal", he kept no such document. Every single Washington scholar says it is a fraudulent document that is nothing more than copies out of the Anglican Book of Common Prayers

    at the best Mitchell even if Washington copied the prayers out of religious
    obedience and culture it does look like he blew it off and got tired of the
    boring impersonal prayers and went back to his enlightened ways...perhaps actually having a personal relationship with God which I would respect him if he said "That is private" . instead right wing religion and david barton want to revise and prop up their bias with fakery and spin and in so doing insult Washington and his personal spiritual life.


    My humble opinion on Washington is that he did not like religiosity and found a Sovereign God through personal observations of nature and experiences but he never...never...never comes off anything like the right wing religious nut jobs have portrayed.

    I think right wing killer bee religion wants power so bad they have to make things up and try and steal foundations so as to prop themselves up as legitimate..the end result is they insult the sovereign God the Washington
    cared about.

    imho
    Aslanspal
     
    #19 ASLANSPAL, Jul 21, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2006
  20. NiteShift

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    Regardless, Washington was a Christian.

    His adopted daughter Nelly said that "He attended the church at Alexandria, when the weather and roads permitted a ride of ten miles. In New York and Philadelphia he never omitted attendance at church in the morning, unless detained by indisposition.", and she said that "When my aunt, Miss Custis, died suddenly at Mount Vernon, before they could realize the event, he knelt by her and prayed most fervently, most affectingly, for her recovery."
     

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