Religious Debt?

Discussion in 'Pastoral Ministries' started by Ingo Breuer, Mar 4, 2005.

  1. Ingo Breuer

    Ingo Breuer
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    A well-known preacher from California who is aired on a Baptist radio station from Kentucky recently made a telling statement about his attitude about money and esp. on tithing. According to this preacher tithing is a "must" for the New Testament Christian. Then he dealt with the question of people who say they can not afford to tithe. His reply was: "Are you in debt? Who would you rather be in debt to? God or man?" He insinuates that if you can't pay your tithe you should borrow the money to pay it. What kind of an irresponsible teaching is that? According to him you're supposed to go into debt to pay your tithe. The same preacher now advertises for ship cruises through the Greek islands with his Bible teaching. That would make me seasick! I despise this greedy attitude in many modern preachers who are constantly trying to preach in the money so they can go on vacation in Europe and a little Bible talk on a ship. That's preposterous! Shame on these ministers. Isn't it amazing how modern preachers attempt to preach in money, so they can burdern others and ease themselves. That's what 2. Cor. 8:13 condemns. The grace of giving and the ministering to the saints served only one pupose: equality! That the abundance of one will supply the want of another. Nobody ever preaches on 2. Cor. 8:14,15. Modern preachers are afraid that preaching on "equality" will make them communists. What a shame! I have a problem with this viewpoint according to which preachers dig up the OT verses on tithing and claim "That's for us today!" but at the same time they claim that "the sabbath is not for today", so they advance the restless, hustle-and-bustle, faced-paced culture where nobody has time, where people work, shop, and play on Sundays. So do these preachers only believe in 9 commandments instead of 10? How in the world can anyone preach that OT tithing is for today, but the OT rest day is not for us? Then those modern preachers violate Prov. 22:7, Ps. 37:21 and tell us we have to go into debt in order to tithe so they can go on cruise to Europe? Preposterous! What hypocrisy! These preachers always tell us we're overspending on things of pleasure and we should avoid debt, but when it comes to paying them then debt is OK. Self-serving false teachers who feed themselves off the flock rather than feed the flock! Repent, repent, repent! Then these preachers want us to go to work on Sundays since there is no rest day anymore. That was just for Israel according to them! What balderdash! Look at the facts: in the "Christian nation" of the USA Sunday is nothing but a regular work day, business day, and shopping day. That's why some segments of the American society will never come to church. And the churches in this country won't speak up, won't stand up, but just put up with it. Small rural churches with bivocational pastors are suffering from that. But who cares? You better go on a $5,000 cruise with Rev. Dr. Dryasdust.
     
  2. dh1948

    dh1948
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    I am not sure what you mean by "modern preachers." I can only assume that you are talking about "modern-day" preachers, of which I am one. I am a preacher and I am preaching in the modern time....2005. I would assume that all preachers who are alive now and preaching are modern-day preachers.

    The fact is that most Baptist churches in America are small in number and take in just enough funds to pay the bills and do some mission work. It is only understandable that occasionally the pastor has to urge his people to be faithful givers. A couple of months of low income can throw some churches into a tail-spin. I do not know of any pastor of a typical size Baptist church who preaches on money in order to pad his wallet. While I suspect that a few of the TV preachers I know about are highly motivated by the accumulation of wealth, I really can not see their motives. Therefore, I cannot judge their motives. God knows. Let Him be the judge.

    I don't think I have ever heard any pastor urge his church members to go into debt to tithe. What I have heard is pastors urge their people to give to God first, and He would meet their other needs. Unfortunately, I have heard of some pastors who have challenged their people to borrow money...even give a mortgage no their houses... to give toward building projects. I question that practice.

    I have been the pastor of my present church for nine years. Usually I preach 1 or 2 sermons a year on the subject of the stewardship of money, not because I am shy about the subject. In 2004, our income was $15,000 over budget. This year is looking good, too. I thank the Lord for that.

    It has been my experience that the people who normally get upset about the pastor preaching on giving are the ones who feel guilty about their giving habits.

    Someone told me a story about a man who got very upset with his pastor after he discovered five brooms in the utility closet. He went to the pastor's office to complain about the waste of money in buying five brooms when one or two would have sufficed. The pastor gently counseled him, "I guess I would be upset too if my entire year of contributions was tied up in a broom closet." [​IMG]
     
  3. gb93433

    gb93433
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    Who's the preacher you are referring to.
     
  4. Soulman

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    I also don't know of any pastors padding their wallets as motivation for preaching on the tithe.

    I do know preachers that beat their people over the head telling them they are robbing God if they don't tithe. Urging the teens to tithe on their chips and soda money.(which parents already tithed on) Threatening the congregation with a curse if they don't tithe. Telling people that they need to tithe no matter what the circumstances and God's blessings will follow. Telling them that the reason their finances are out of wack is because they don't trust God and tithe. Where records are kept on how much a person gives supposedly for tax purposes. In reality it is so they can remove people from leadership positions if they arent giving up to snuff.

    I belonged to such a church where your ability to serve was based on your ability to give.

    Phooey! Phooey! Phooey!

    The doctrine of tithing in the new testament is one of the biggest lies being taught in churches today. It stifles peoples Christianity by placing them in bondage to the law. It robbs the Christian of the blessing of giving as God leads them. The church promises prosperity if they tithe which isn't biblical in the slightest sense. The teaching of Storehouse Tithing is another way that stifles a believers ability to give as God leads and whom to give to.

    I know that not all churches are this way but a good many are. These churches need to stop deceiving their people and teach the doctrine of New Testament giving. Not only is it liberating but it is Gods way. The church needs to trust God with it's finances instead of telling the flock to.
     
  5. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    Soulman....THANK YOU....My sentiments exactly.Right now I'm going through a financial "valley" where giving is difficult even though I love to give.I used to blindly "buy into" the tithing idea until the true teaching of the scriptures was made plain to me.I lived under a load of guilt most of the time and even bounced checks trying to fulfill the "law" of the tithe.That really made a shambles of my faith.I am thankful for the liberty I now have in Christ and give as often and as much as He prospers me to be able to.....and I do it as unto the Lord....not to be noticed OR accounted for by any man or church.My biggest prayer would be that God would prosper me so I can do more.God Bless you for speaking the truth.

    Greg Sr.
     
  6. gb93433

    gb93433
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    When people are growing and the church is discipling others God gets ahold of them and their wallet too. Money is not the issue. The heart is the issue. I have only preached one sermon on giving money but many on discipling others and ways to reach out to others in an effort to reach them.
     
  7. Soulman

    Soulman
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    Greg Perry Sr.,
    Thank you for the kind words. It has been a little eye opening as you know. We have both posted on other threads pertaining to this issue. The thing is, there isn't alot of resistance which is a good thing. Christians on this board are open to truth. I have learned a good many things since I joined as I am sure you have. Thanks again!!

    Thats excellent gb93433. Actually preach on money as often as you need without fear. It is a heart issue as you state. Giving God's way gives us a satisfaction that we are doing right.
     
  8. Ingo Breuer

    Ingo Breuer
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    Do you say this with the intent to slur me in this Christian forum? I hope not. It would not be right to say this as a pastor. Speak to edification, please.

    I do feel concerned about this "tithing" issue because when I look at my community I see that within churches you hardly see people who work in lower-income manufacturing jobs. So obviously there is a problem for people with lower incomes to buy into strict tithing. Jesus Christ always had compassion on the poor while so many churches today put financial demands on people that are no longer in line with economic realities. So rather than accusing people of guilt in their giving habits, please tell me how we can give as Christians in a culture where cost-of-living is skyrocketing and wages are often below $10/hr. Many spoiled preachers who've graduated from academia hardly know the realities of working-poor people and that's why these groups of people often talk past each others' heads. How can people tithe when their base cost-of-living consumes near 100% of their income. Does James 5:4,5 come into play here? Apostle Paul was fortunate to be able to minister to his own needs and to the needs of others (Acts 20:34) Many people today don't earn enough to help out others including the church. How do you deal with these realities? A lot of churches don't want to deal with this and so they turn into social clubs or prosperity clubs where only their "kind of people" come. God forbid! Christ died for all! And not just for the cute clique!
     
  9. dh1948

    dh1948
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    Ingo, sorry you took my remark as a slur toward you personally. Note that I said, "It has been my experience..." I was simply making an observation based on my 31 years of experience in pastoring.

    It would seem to me that if a person is giving 2% out of conviction that that is what God has led them to give, it would not send them on a guilt trip when the pastor preaches on giving, even if he endorses tithing. After all, why would they feel guilty for doing what God has led them to do?

    Forgive me for offending you.
     
  10. Soulman

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