Remedy Before Sentence!

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by tyndale1946, May 20, 2015.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

    2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

    3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

    4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

    8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

    9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

    10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

    11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

    12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

    13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

    14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

    15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

    17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

    18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

    19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

    21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

    22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

    24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

    After Adam and Eve took of the forbidden fruit was is the first thing they did?

    7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

    They used their WORKS to hide their nakedness from God and hid themselves in the amongst the trees of the garden.


    After Adam broke the Law Of God the sentence was not forthcoming but the remedy. Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    And because of the remedy already in place the Lord in his Triune Godhead makes the first sacrifice.

    21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

    The remedy came before the sentence!... Comments... Brother Glen
     
  2. steaver

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    Amen! And the LORD's will was for Adam and Eve's eyes to be opened, that Jesus Christ might be glorified!
     
  3. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    According to this scripture you are in error!... It was not the Lord's WILL that Adam SIN that Christ might be glorified... Do you not know scripture?

    I James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    14: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away in his own lust, and enticed.

    15: Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    Drawn away in his own lust and what lust was that?

    Ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.... Well Satan was half right, they lost God who was good and embraced Satan who was evil... Brother Glen
     
  4. steaver

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    I didn't say God tempted Adam to sin. God saw to it that Adam would choose by his own free will to sin. Thus, carrying out God's will and purpose.

    No fall, no glorification of Jesus Christ, who was slain from the foundation of the world. It is God's plan, God's will that Christ should be glorified. No fall, no glorification. So you believe it was God's will that Adam never sin?
     
    #4 steaver, May 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2015
  5. kyredneck

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    Excellent! These sort of articulations makes my heart happy! Thank you brother.
     
  6. tyndale1946

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    Yes I do?... For this reason and this is pure speculation!... What if the Satan approached Adam directly?... Would he have sinned?... He didn't he went thru Adam through his heart... Adam sinned to save his wlfe Eve that God created for him to love?... The same as Adam took of the forbidden fruit to save Eve his bride he broke the law of God, Christ also took of the forbidden fruit save his and he kept the law of God.
    Adam could not have sinned but did according to the above scenario and the reason I believe it is this verse. There are probably many others to back it up but this on will suffice for the time.

    Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched by with the feelings of our infirmities; but was all points tempted like as we are yet, without sin... Brother Glen
     
  7. BrotherJoseph

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    Brother Stever,

    You are correct in saying it was God's will that Adam sin. If it wasn't his will he would have never put Satan in the garden. Why else was Satan in the garden? I do disagree with you however when you imply Adam could have not sinned out of free will. The reason I disagree is because Adam was not created with faith and scripture tells us, "whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Romans 14:23)

    Also, interesting to note, is the fact that God allowed the devil to deceive our mother Eve, and has allowed him to go on and will allow him for a "little season" to deceive the nations as it is written in Revelation 20:7-8, "7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth" then destroy him "that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;" (Hebrews 2:14), when he could have destroyed him before he deceived any one, had it been his will to do so, proves to any sane mind that He made him for that purpose, and will continue to use him as He sees fit until HIs set time to destroy him is come.

    Why, O why, must he be loosed "for a little season to deceive the nations," if it is not God's will and purpose for him to do so?

    God bless,

    Brother Joe
     
  8. Rebel

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    I do not believe it was God's will that Adam sin.

    All of the reasoning in the latest posts is just perverse.
     
  9. McCree79

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    If God did not want Adam to sin, he would have made Adam without the ability to sin. Obviously the sin was against God's perceptive will. However the sin of Adam had to be done inside God decretive will. We can't catch God off guard of surprise him. Adam would not have been allowed even the potential of sin if God had not allowed it.

    Ephesians 1 tells us that "according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will"
     
  10. BrotherJoseph

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    Brother Rebel,

    You are certainly free to disagree, however do you care to rebut any points in my post that you believe is "perverse" or just name call on the post?

    The fall of Adam was predestinated, but God willing that sin come into existence does not make God the author of sin. Please permit me to explain. An act alone does not constitute sin, but the righteousness or unrighteousness of an act is determined by the motive prompting the act. If a physician causes his fellowman great pain and suffering and even death by the amputation of a limb in an effort to do him good, no one would condemn that physician of wrong doing; but if he causes him pain or suffering or death by amputating a limb in malice and with an intention of doing him harm, that physician is guilty of wrong. God has a holy and sinless motive in all that He does, in all that He causes to be done and in all that He allows to be done, and intends that each thing done shall redound to the praise of that holy and exalted purpose, and so it matters not how sinful and vile the act may be when performed by man with a corrupt motive, God’s motive and purpose in the act being most holy He is not and can not be chargeable with sin; and yet the very same act which He has appointed to issue in His praise and redound to His glory is a vile transgression on the part of the one who performed it, as his design was evil. God's motive behind the fall of mankind was that Christ could redeem his people who would praise him for it. If it were not for the fall, you wouldn't have the greatest act of love ever seen or ever will be seen-the atonement. Also, it is not coicedence that Jesus is the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8), as Brother Glenn pointed out the remedy was created before the fall even happened. This is because it was all part of God's plan. This is why Paul declares "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," (2 Timothy 1:9)


    To illustrate, when God sent the king of Assyria against Israel with the charge God declares “I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets.” (Isaiah 10:6), God continues, “But this is not what he (the king of Assyria) intends,
    this is not what he has in mind; his purpose is to destroy, to put an end to many nations”. (Isaiah 10:7) The wickedness was not put in the heart of the king by God’s decree, but it was already there. But God then states, “Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed His whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks. For he saith, by the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom...” (Isaiah 10:12-13) Read the entire 10th chapter of Isaiah. This wicked king did the very thing God determined, but he was not moved in the least to do it by God’s decree; he was entirely ignorant of that, but was actuated by an evil motive to cut off and destroy, thus God punished him for this! Thus we see that an act does not determine if something is sin, but the motive prompting the act, thus God can will that sin exist, but not be the author of sin.

    Sin did not enter into this world in opposition to his will. If it had, the following verse written by Paul would not be true, " him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" (Ephesians 1:11b) God states he works all things, not some things, after his will. God willed that sinners be in existence. Without sin there would have been no need for God to predestine that Jesus accomplish God's plan of redemption.

    If God did not purpose that sin should be in the world, can you give an intelligent reason why He arranged His creation so it would come into the world? Is not the fact that God arranged His creation and has conducted His government in such way as to admit sin into the world evidenced that He intended that it should be in the world? It is certain He could have had it otherwise if it had been His pleasure to have done so, but in some way which He has not been pleased to explain to us He has see fit to have things as they are.

    Scripture tells us "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent (Job 26:13). But that same Bible also tells us, "In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent;..." (Isaiah 27:1) What do you make of these scriptures?



    Brother Joe
     
  11. BrotherJoseph

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    Brother Rebel, if as you believe, God did not "want" sin to enter the world, and the devil did, and God did "want" any man to be a sinner, and the devil wanted all men to become sinners; and God did now "want" sin mixed in any of the affairs of men in this world, and the devil wanted it mixed in all the affairs of men in this world; and God did now "want" any man to ever die, and the devil wanted all men to die, does it not look like the devil has out-generaled God in all things up to now and proved himself to be more wise and powerful than God?

    And if God should get a few of us out of the devil's hands and get us into heaven, what assurance have we that we will not again become sinners and fall from our standing there and be finally lost? If it happened in the garden, why could it not happen there too? However these things cannot be because God created the devil and uses him as his own instrument and he can only work as god wills. "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Proverbs 16:4). The devil is nothing more than a pawn that will be destroyed by God in the end.

    Brother Joe
     
  12. steaver

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    Setting speculation aside, if it was God's will that Adam should never sin, then you would have to conclude that Adam's will trumped God's will.
     
  13. steaver

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    Where do you get an understanding that Adam was or was not created with faith?
     
  14. Rebel

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    In answer to your first paragraph: No.

    In answer to your second paragraph: Who knows? it could happen, I suppose. Humans and angels have always been free to choose, and even Satan/Lucifer, too. That does not bother me as much as the idea that God created a lot of puppets.
     
  15. tyndale1946

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    After further consideration I will study what was said for further understanding. So I'm stepping aside and bowing out and letting you, Rebel and Brother Joseph and whoever else decides to join the OP I started continue!... Brother Glen:wavey:
     
  16. steaver

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    Not sure I follow this reasoning, it sounds like you are saying Adam was created a sinner because you believe Adam was not created "with faith". Yet after God finished creating Adam and Eve, God said His creation was "very good". I don't believe God would have said such a thing if Adam was created a sinner (assuming Ro 14 should be applied as you are doing) .
     
  17. steaver

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    What has happened in this Calvinism verses Arminianism debate is two extreme conclusions, and unbiblical ones both, are created.

    Calvinism goes to the extreme of God's will is void of God allowing His creation to exercise a God given free will.

    Arminianism goes to the extreme of God's will is void of God limiting His creation to exercise a God given free will.

    The truth is found when both God's will and man's given free will is allowed to work as properly described in the Scriptures.

    Calvinism's conclusions are wrong, as is Arminianism's conclusions are wrong.

    Found within God's will is the freedom for mankind to exercise a will of their own. Both exist, but ultimately God's will is accomplished in every free will decision that is made and will be made.

    It is best to avoid embracing either ism, for isms are ultimately the product of fallen man. You will find yourself living a much fuller Christian life if you just leave these mysterious details in the hands of God. Your spirit will find the most peace with the Spirit when you allow both God's will and man's will to exist without having to pit one against the other. God has a perfect plan and no other plan could have accomplished such love towards God than for God to allow man to freely choose to love God.

    If you think about it rationally, if God was just going to zap people into loving Him, there would have been no need at all for sin to be introduced into the world. No choice equals no true love, which is why I see God having to do it just the way He did, a perfect plan indeed!
     
  18. BrotherJoseph

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    Brother Steaver,

    I agree with you that Adam was not created a sinner. Adam was made "good" it is true, but he was not made "holy". There must be a difference because Genesis 1:12 says, "And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good." Thus the grass is also said to be created "good", but I doubt anybody would say the grass was also "holy". There is a difference. Only Christ's sacrifice is what makes one "holy".

    I do not believe Adam had faith, at least at the time he ate of the fruit, otherwise I do not believe he would have eaten of the fruit. Admittedly, this is mere speculation on my part as the scripture does not explicitly say either he did or didn't have faith, but it does say whatever is "not of faith is sin". At any rate, he did not have a knowledge of good and evil when he choose to eat the fruit must at least be admitted because God said,"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17). Thus he hadn't eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, therefore he couldn't have had such knowledge prior to eating.

    I do however believe Lucifer, unlike Adam, was created evil and there is scripture to support this. "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning... (John 8:44) also, "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning" (1 John 3:8)

    Also, look at what Ezekiel had to say about him, " Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. (Ezekiel 28:14-15)

    I want to mainly focus on the last sentence from the quote above. The first half of the verse says “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created...” The word “perfect” does not mean holy or righteous but it means “complete, without blemish and perfect” per the Hebrew definition of the word in NAS Exhaustive Concordance and how the word is sometimes rendered in the NASB http://biblehub.com/hebrew/8549.htm . The verse also makes clear that whom Ezekiel is talking about was a created being and was created perfect or complete. The next thing to notice is in the second part of the verse which says, “...till iniquity was found in thee.” Here we see that “iniquity” which means “evil or wickedness” was found in him. So, think about it in this light: If something is found somewhere does that not mean then that it was there before but just wasn’t made manifest? For example, picture that my wife and I are out walking on a path and as I look down I notice and “find” a silver dollar in the dirt on the ground. Did that silver dollar “originate” at that moment in the dirt because it was found by me? Or was it there before I found it? Obviously it was there before I found it but it was just made manifest to me at that moment. So, when this verse says that “iniquity” was found in him, then it means that this “evil or wickedness” was already there but was made manifest in him at the appointed time.

    Satan of course is only a tool used to accomplish God's grand plans who will then be destroyed. That he is only a tool is seen in the book of Job, how Satan bought upon Job all sorts of calamities against Job as we read, "12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord" (Job 1:12), yet Job attibutes this to God's doing when he said,"21... Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord" (Job 1:21). Was Job wrong in attributing this to the Lord? No because the next verse tells us " 22 "In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly." (Job 1:22)

    Wicked human being's are also said to just a tool or God's sword in carrying out his purposes. "Arise, O Lord, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword:" (Psalm 17:13) When they are thrown into eternal damnation God will "shew his wrath, and to make his power known" (Romans 9:22) and also, "4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Proverbs 16:4).

    Brother Joe
     
    #18 BrotherJoseph, May 23, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2015
  19. steaver

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    Would you say Adam did not have the Spirit of Christ then, even before his fall?

    Not sure that follows, seeing how those with faith now still make decisions to sin.

    What of Adam then? Using your interpretation of Satan, it could be said that Adam was created evil with sin embedded in him, and later it was manifest outwardly.

    If Adam had no faith as you suggest, and we apply Rom 14:23 as you suggest, then Adam would have to be a sinner from his creation. I believe Adam was created with faith to be exercised. Adam failed when he misdirected his faith away from God and towards the woman God gave him, which was his unmerited excuse he gave God for his failure to stay faithful to God.
     
  20. BrotherJoseph

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    Before the fall he certainly didn't because, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1). One cannot lose their salvation, and thus if Adam was "in Christ" there could be "no condemnation", but when he fell we read, " by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation" (Romans 5:18), thus Adam couldn't have had Christ in him prior to the fall, otherwise there would be condemnation for those "in Christ". Also, I believe it is very possible Adam was elect and regenerated after the fall. We read in Genesis after the fall Adam and Eve put on and sewed fig leaves that they had picked by their own works to cover up their nakedness. I believe this is symbolic of man putting on the false cloak of a man made works religion to cover up their sin. However, after this we read, " 21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them" (Genesis 3:21). I believe the Lord slaying the animal and clothing them with it is symbolic of them being covered by the Lamb Christ's righteousness who was scarified and slain, thus I do believe they were children of God.




    I like you do not believe Adam was created a sinner, he was created "good" but so were the plants and trees , etc that God said they were "good" (Genesis 1:10-11), but that is not the same as being "holy". A tree or plant can be "good", but not "holy". According to Strong's Concordance dictionary the Hebrew word "towb" there in Genesis rendered "good" in the King James simply means "beautiful" http://biblehub.com/hebrew/2896.htm

    Brother Steaver, do you believe Adam was holy prior to the fall and thus when one becomes born again and is later glorified they simply revert to Adam's original state before the fall or do you believe his children get more than this when they are "in Christ"?

    Brother Joe
     

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