Repentance and Faith:

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by tnelson, Jul 22, 2003.

  1. tnelson

    tnelson
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    The root error of the Arminian's gospel of freewill is its failure to see that man's part, repentance and faith, are fruits and effects of God's work and not the essential ingredient's supplied by the sinner as "man's part of the deal." Every man who turns to Christ does so willingly, but that willingness is a direct result of the Father's election and the Holy Spirit's effectual calling. To say, "if you will believe, God will answer your faith with the New Birth," is to misunderstand man's true need and misrepresent God's essential work.


    It's all about Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrace.

    mike :cool:
     
  2. William C

    William C
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    Arminianus believed that repentance and faith were fruits of God's work, because Armininanus recognized something that many Calvinists overlook, the presentation of the gospel IS A WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Therefore, anything that happens as a direct result of man's hearing the gospel message can clearly be called a fruit of the Spirit's working. Don't you agree.
     
  3. tnelson

    tnelson
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    Which is it?

    A. Every man has this ability.

    or

    B. God giving us the spiritual life that enables us to do what we must do, but cannot do because of our bondage to sin.

    Man canot see-until he first be born again. (John 3:3)

    Man cannot understand-until he first be given a new nature. (1 Cor.2:14)

    Man cannot-until he first be effectually called by the Holy Spirit. (John 6:44-45)

    Good night to all .

    Mike [​IMG]
     
  4. William C

    William C
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    A.

    B is not the answer because it is not supported in the scripture. Why would God make a provision for our way out of the bondage of sin through means that we were not able to accomplish because of that very bondage, yet hold us responsible for not using those means?

    It not only doesn't make any sense, it is not scripturally supported.


    I agree. We are born again through belief in the Word of truth.

    Understand what? The gospel or the "deep things of God" as is referenced in this passage? Notice that even the Corithian brothers couldn't receive these things Paul is speaking of, it can't be salvific in nature if brethern haven't yet accepted it.

    Who is Jesus speaking to, and what is he speaking about in this passage?

    He is speaking to Jews all of which had been hardened according to John 12:37-41 and therefore were unable to believe, accept for the remnant who were chosen to be the ones who carried the gospel message to the world. The twelve were chosen, as Jesus points out in this same chapter, out of the Jews to accomplish a special purpose. The rest were not ABLE to come to Jesus and learn from him because they weren't "given to him by the Father" to be apostles.

    Understanding the historical context and the scope of the passage is necessary to grasping the author's original intent. Read this passage again without your Calvinistic presuppositions and I think you will see what I mean.
     
  5. tnelson

    tnelson
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    John 12:37-40
    In these verses, John gave the Scriptural explanation for such large scale, catastrophic unbelief on the part of the jewish nation. The explanation was that the unbelief was not only foreseen in Scripture but necessitated by it. In vs.38, John quotes Is.53:1 and in v. 40 he quotes Is.6:10, both of which stress the sovereign plan of God in His judicial hardening of Israel( Read Pauls argument in Rom.9-11). Although God predestined such judgment, it was not apart from human responsibility and culpability.

    FREE and SOVEREIGN GRACE

    mike [​IMG]
     
  6. William C

    William C
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    I think I agree with that Mike.

    What you are missing is that this part of God's plan is a part of the historical context in which the rest of the scripture was written. Therefore, when there are texts that speak of Israel's inablity to believe you should apply that to support texts for Calvinisms view of Totally Depravity, instead it should be understood as temporary judicial hardening of God.
     
  7. Sularis

    Sularis
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    See - I have a wierd lil problem with some of the wording people are going with

    We are regenerated then we are saved?
    We are reborn a new creature and after that we are saved?

    This makes no sense - It is putting on our God what is OUR responsibility - Not that we save ourselves, but that we respond to His offer to do so for us.

    1 - God cannot be solely involved in salvation - because every Christian Ive seen is sinning part of the time - and the makes God's initial job either flawed, or His ability to preserve extremely weak

    2 - Faith and repentance ARE man's response to God - Man cannot generate these salvificary conditions WITHOUT God generating the cause(s) for them.

    3 - Salvation is not a one time blip on the temporal radar - It is an ongoing process - one that we are called to be a part of - To reason with God - to work out salvation with trembling and fear - to pray without ceasing - rejoice evermore - Go ye into all the world.....
     
  8. William C

    William C
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  9. tnelson

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    God is a triune God, and no person can understand His "so great salvation" until he sees each blessed Person of the Godhead playing a distinct and necessary part in that salvation. No man can declare the "glorious gospel of grace" and leave out the Father's sovereign electing love and the Holy Spirit's regenerating power as essential parts of God's work in saving sinners. To speak of "God's part" in salvation as only being one of "providing" forgiveness and man's part as "being willing" to accept it is to ignore both the Father's work of election and the Spirit's work of regeneration. This not only makes man a full "partner" with God in the work of salvation, it credits man with playing the decisive roll in the deal. How dreadful, and ridiculous, to give Christ the glory for His work on the cross, and then give sinners the credit for the Father's work in eternity (election) and the Spirit's work in our hearts (regeneration). It does great dishonor to the Sovereign Spirit to say, "The Holy Spirit will perform His miraculous work of quickening you unto life as soon as you give Him your permission." That like standing in a graveyoard saying to the dead people, "I will give you life and raise you up from the grave if you will only take the first step of faith and ask me to do it." What a denial of the sinner's total spiritual inability. Amazing!

    mike [​IMG]
     
  10. BobRyan

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    The root error of the Arminian's gospel of freewill is its failure to see that man's part, repentance and faith, are fruits and effects of God's work and not the essential ingredient's supplied by the sinner as "man's part of the deal."

    There is no such term contrast in Scripture as "calling of God" vs "Effectual calling of God" - that is simply a notion Calvinist's make up.

    God "Effectively DRAWS ALL mankind unto Him" John 12:32. And as a result ALL MANKIND is ENABLED to do what total depravity DISABLED in the matter of choosing "life" - choosing to respond to God.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Dr. Bob

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    What a pathetic failure your God is if He [your words] "effectively" draws all to Him and they don't come! Not very "effective" if you ask me!

    Who is more powerful? The "effective" God that calls or the "effective" man that rejects Him?

    Man = God, the root error in this equation! But it always has been, since Eden. :rolleyes:
     
  12. Yelsew

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    It's all about Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrace.

    mike [Cool] </font>[/QUOTE]You negate the words of Jesus in John 3:16, John 3:18, and John the Baptist in John 3:30-36. Jesus said
    Jesus also said,
    John the Baptist said,
    It is only by Hearing the message from God, by whatever means we do hear the message, that we can have faith which is the single ingredient that man adds to salvation. "It is by grace, the environment; through faith, the means, that we are saved..."
     
  13. tnelson

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    John 3:16 (does not prove free-will)

    For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes (those believing) in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

    Only those that believe in Him will not perish.
    Only those that were chosen in Him from the foundation of the world will believe. (All of them.)

    mike [​IMG]
     
  14. Yelsew

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    "Whosoever" means ANY out of ALL. That is, out of ALL that exist, some, or many, may believe in Jesus, even on his name and receive eternal life.

    (ALL of them)? Not hardly, because names can be "blotted from" the Book of life and God's word tells us the singular condition that causes one's name to be blotted out is lack of faith! A condition that causes all sorts of other conditions. Names can be added to the Book of life TOO! Those who Hear the Gospel and Believe in Jesus (God) have their names "added to the book of life", for they too, are recipients of Salvation thru faith in Jesus because Jesus Atonement covers their sins.
     
  15. Frogman

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    All who are born are written in the Book of Life.

    All the elect who are and will be saved eternally are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton.
     
  16. Yelsew

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    He who writes names in the Book of Life also blots names from the Book of life. The same "He" writes names into and blots names from the Lambs book of Life.
     
  17. Frogman

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    The Lamb's Book of life, as the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, was written before the foundation of the world.

    To be blotted out of the book of life is to be removed from present life. To be cut off is to have your name removed from Israel and not have any raised up to continue your name.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  18. Yelsew

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    You are saying then that the Book of life is the book of all the people who have, are, or will live on this earth, and that the Lambs book of life is the book of the elect.

    I wonder why God did not think to call them that?
     

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