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Repetition & Redundancy in the Scriptures

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by franklinmonroe, Mar 19, 2011.

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  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Are you in favor of a condensed translation Franklin?
     
    #21 Rippon, Mar 30, 2011
  2. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Psalms 111:10 & Proverbs 9:10 share an identical phrase (KJV) --
    Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: ...
    Prov 9:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: ...
    ​
    The exact phase "the fear of the LORD" occurs about 27 times in the Bible (14 of them in Proverbs, and only once in the NT).
     
    #22 franklinmonroe, Mar 30, 2011
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  3. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    No, not all. Repetition is a wonderful literary devise and is effective in increasing the human ability to retain something learned.

    Is there not an amazing amount of redundancy in Scripture?
     
    #23 franklinmonroe, Mar 30, 2011
  4. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Yes,certainly.


    There sure is. Repetition is a good didactic tool.
     
    #24 Rippon, Mar 30, 2011
  5. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Underpinning many KJVO arguments lies the idea that ancient Hebrew words (or Greek) could only be accurately translated in one way into English (and of course, the KJV text represents that singularly precise wording).

    However, the KJV translators themselves would render the same original language Scripture in more than one way. Isaiah 35:10 (above) and Isaiah 51:11 (below) are two verses that are virtually identical in Hebrew but are translated by the KJV with different words and different word order --
    And the ransomed of the LORD shall return,
    Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return,
    and come to Zion with songs
    and come with singing unto Zion;
    and everlasting joy upon their heads:
    and everlasting joy [shall be] upon their head:
    they shall obtain joy and gladness,
    they shall obtain gladness and joy;
    and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
    [and] sorrow and mourning shall flee away. ​
    The Hebrew --

    ופדויי יהוה ישבון ובאו ציון ברנה ושמחת עולם
    על־ראשם ששון ושמחה ישיגו ונסו יגון ואנחה׃ פ

    ופדויי יהוה ישובון ובאו ציון ברנה ושמחת עולם
    על־ראשם ששון ושמחה ישיגון נסו יגון ואנחה׃ ס
    ​
     
    #25 franklinmonroe, Mar 22, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2012
  6. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    As the above example suggests, it is often difficult to identify repetition and redundancy in Scripture (in the original languages) due to variations introduced by translators. Should translators preserve repetition found in their source documents?
     
    #26 franklinmonroe, Mar 26, 2012
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  7. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    The Book of Revelation has a lot of repeated phrases; here are few examples --
    1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, ...
    1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
    1:17 ... I am the first and the last:
    2:8 ... saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
    21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. ...
    21:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.     ​
    ________________________
    1:4 ... from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; ...
    1:8 ... which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
    4:8 ... Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.​

    ​
    ________________________

    2:7 He that hath an ear , let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; ...
    2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; ...
    2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; ...
    2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
    3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
    3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
    3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
    13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. ​

    ​
    ________________________
    5:9 ... every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    7:9 ... of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, ...
    10:11 ... before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
    13:7 ... all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
    14:6 ... every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
    17:15 ... are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues​

    ​
     
    #27 franklinmonroe, Mar 26, 2012
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  8. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Exact phrase found in Jeremiah 30:14-15 --
    All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; [because] thy sins were increased.

    Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow [is] incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: [because] thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee    . ​
    And recalls the similar sound of James 5:20 & 1 Peter 4:8 --
    Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

    And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.     ​
     
    #28 franklinmonroe, Mar 26, 2012
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  9. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    I really noticed these similar verses in Matthew 6 with the exact same phrase in them this morning before church --
    6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

    6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

    6:18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.     ​
     
    #29 franklinmonroe, Apr 1, 2012
  10. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    I wonder if any one has noticed an often repeated phrase or redundant verse in the two years since I first posted this issue? I know I have.
    ________________________

    The second occurrences of the phrases in 1 John 2:13-14 below always struck me as possibly introduced early into the text by a copyist --

    13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning.
    I write unto you, young men,
    because ye have overcome the wicked one.
    I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

    14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning.
    I have written unto you, young men,
    because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you,
    and ye have overcome the wicked one.     ​
     
    #30 franklinmonroe, Mar 29, 2014
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  11. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Terrific job on this thread, you did a lot of work!

    I had often wondered about redundancy in scripture, I agree, it helps us retain what God says.

    Unfortunately, we do not always listen well and have to be told more than once.

    Again, great job on this thread.
     
    #31 Winman, Mar 29, 2014
  12. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    More identical Pauline verses and phrases from his epistles (KJV) --

    Rom 1:7b ... Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    2Co 1:2 Grace [be] to you and peace from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Gal 1:3 Grace [be] to you and peace from God the Father, and [from] our Lord Jesus Christ,
    Eph 1:2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Col 1:2b ... Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Phm 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
     ​
     
    #32 franklinmonroe, Mar 29, 2014
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  13. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Thank you. I didn't consider it work since it I enjoy reading the Word and it has been instructive.

    Have you discovered any repeating biblical verses or phrases?
     
    #33 franklinmonroe, Mar 29, 2014
  14. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Excellent topic. I look it as the Holy Spirit placing emphasis where He wants to get our attention. Also a 'several fold' revelation carries weight in the same vein as 'at the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may be established'. Regardless, presuppositions seem to trump redundancy when it comes to interpretation. Examples:

    And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

    You'd think that these trips coupled with 'the time is at hand' would get the point across, hoi polloi ignores it.

    2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
    3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

    You'd think that this threefold warning coupled with 'we are the circumcision' would get the point across, hoi polloi ignores it.

    who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1:13

    You'd think this threefold denial of any involvement of man in the birth from above would get the point across, hoi polloi ignores it.
     
    #34 kyredneck, Mar 29, 2014
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  15. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Even more identical verses and phrases mostly from the end of Pauline epistles (KJV) --

    Rom 16:20b ... The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.
    Rom 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen.
    1Co 16:23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you.
    Gal 6:18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with your spirit. Amen.
    Phl 4:23 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen.
    1Th 5:28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen.
    2Th 3:18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen.
    Phm 1:25 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with your spirit. Amen.
    Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen.     ​
     
    #35 franklinmonroe, Mar 29, 2014
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24:34

    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13:30

    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21:32

    There's lots of redundancy contained in the synoptics for hoi polloi to ignore.
     
    #36 kyredneck, Mar 29, 2014
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  17. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Some are word-for-word verses in Genesis 10 & 1 Chronicles 1, but these two chapters have many similarities throughout (as you might expect from genealogies). Here is just a brief example (KJV) --

    2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai,
    and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
    3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
    4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.

    5 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai,
    and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
    6 And the sons of Gomer; Ashchenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
    7 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.    ​
     
    #37 franklinmonroe, Mar 30, 2014
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  18. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Almost entirely identical chapters are Ezra 2 & Nehemiah 7 (staring with verse 6 in Nehemiah). Here is how it begins --

    1 Now these [are] the children of the province that went up out
    of the captivity, of those which had been carried away,
    whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away
    unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah,
    every one unto his city;

    6 These [are] the children of the province, that went up out
    of the captivity, of those that had been carried away,
    whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away,
    and came again to Jerusalem and to Judah,
    every one unto his city;     ​

    And here is how it ends nearly 70 verses later (KJV) --

    70 So the priests, and the Levites, and [some] of the people,
    and the singers, and the porters, and the Nethinims,
    dwelt in their cities, and all Israel
    in their cities.

    73 So the priests, and the Levites, and the porters,
    and the singers, and [some] of the people, and the Nethinims,
    and all Israel, dwelt in their cities;
    and when the seventh month came,
    the children of Israel [were]
    in their cities.    ​

    The similarities are interesting, but the differences are what are really fascinating!
     
    #38 franklinmonroe, Mar 30, 2014
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  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Absolutely!!! The same word meaning, the same phrase, the same sentence should all be translated concordantly.

    But a question arises, have the ever helpful copyists altered the text to make one verse read like another? Similar passages might look like two different individuals inspired to present the same message, but exact duplicates brings to mind a copy and past activity. Was the inspired author directed to "compile" a text from material at hand, i.e. some prior inspired writing, or did an uninspired copyist add to the text?
     
    #39 Van, Mar 31, 2014
  20. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    This exact phrase is repeated in Scripture (not including the similar Gospel parallels)--

    Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

    2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    ​
     
    #40 franklinmonroe, Apr 1, 2014
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