Repsector of Persons/woman pastor

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Shortandy, Nov 30, 2009.

  1. Shortandy

    Shortandy
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    I know this one has been debated many times before. However, I am currently debating this with some Methodist friends in my community.

    I am of the view that woman are not to be pastors. This has created some debate to say the least. But the biggest thing I keep getting from the other side are passages about God not being a respector of persons...."Jew nor Greek, male nor female, etc". But can this apply? Do verses like these make it ok for a woman to pastor?

    I also got hit with verses about prophecy. But again I ask can these passages apply? Just because believers are commanded to proclaim the good news does that mean that woman can pastor?
     
  2. Johnv

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    It's a question of autonomy and liberty. If a congregation chooses to let women serve in the pastoral role, then let them. If they choose to believe or practice prhphecy as they see it, then let 'em. You can adhere to your position. It's no reason to break fellowship over, and no reason to have arguments or debates with friend over.
     
  3. Shortandy

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    No one is breaking fellowship John. But it is more than a freedom issue in my opinion. And the "proofs" that some offer on the issue are not proofs at all.
     
  4. Johnv

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    It is a freedom issue, more to the point, it's a matter of liberty. None of the differences between you and your Methodist friends are issues of core scriptural essentials. I'm glad there's no breaking of fellowship here, but it's not necessary to debate.

    I have presbyterian friends and family who practice baptism of infants. When the topic comes up, I explain why I practice in believer's baptism, and they explain why they believe in infant baptism. Then we have lunch, enjoy each other's company, etc. No argument, debate, or banter. No need to make it difficult to fellowship together. There are much more serious issues in the church than these.
     
  5. annsni

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    God is not a respecter of persons at the foot of the cross - we're all equal. However, is a slave free? Is a Greek a Jew? Is a man a woman? No. Each one has a specific place in life and a specific calling. Not once is a priest a woman. Never. Paul was very clear in his letters and description of the qualifications of an elder and deacon that they are to be men.

    Prophecy is different than pastoring. Prophecy is a gift of the Spirit but not a role that is taken on. It is clear in Scripture that women can prophesy and that they can pray but no where does it say that a woman is to be in the position of elder, which would be a pastor.

    Just some thoughts.
     
  6. SBCPreacher

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    Thanks Pastor Ann.



    (Just kidding!)


    But a good response.
     
  7. preachinjesus

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    The verse mentioned (Galatians 3:28) is about salvation and how God has made salvation available to all people. Note the context that the verse sits within, it is about how the Law held people over until Christ, and now through Christ all people have access to God's grace.

    One of the controversies in the Galatian, and early, church was the nature of salvation and who had access to it. Paul's point here is that in God's eye when it comes to salvation there is no better person...in salvation we are all equals.

    This does not apply to other roles and matters concerning the body of Christ. It is a very hard hermeneutical stretch to take this verse and apply it to women as gender equals to men for the pastorate. Particularly since 1 Timothy directly speaks about how we are uniquely different.

    Prophecy is different than pastoral leadership. I actually believe that while women can preach, teach, and evangelize that the deaconship and pastoral office is reserved for men only because of the explicit Scripture.

    I am happy to have women speaking (which would be a conetemporary equal to prophecy) to groups of believers. But the office of pastor, elder, and deacon are different Scripturally speaking.

    Besides if your Methodist friends want to really debate this just take them to the text and have them read the context. It really is clear imho.
     
  8. Crabtownboy

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    In Christ the slave is free.

    In Christ there is no Greek nor Jew.


    In Christ there is no male nor female.



    Just some thoughts.[/QUOTE]
     
  9. annsni

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    [/QUOTE]

    "In Christ"

    But in this world, there is. We are directed that if we're a slave, we are to continue being a slave and be a good one. If we're free, we're to continue to be free and be a good free-person. A wife cannot strive to be a husband nor can a husband strive to be a wife. One who is not qualified to be a pastor cannot be one. It's not about being a man or woman but a qualification. A doctor is no better than me at the foot of the cross but most certainly it makes a difference when it comes time to cut you open. :)
     
  10. Crabtownboy

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    "In Christ"

    [/QUOTE]

    And in Christ there is no limitation.
     
  11. webdog

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    And in Christ there is no limitation.[/QUOTE]...unless God's Word gives them, which He has. A husband of one wife is a scriptural requirement, and Scripture never contradicts itself.
     
  12. Johnv

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    True, but our understanding, intpretation, and application of scripture frequently does.
     
  13. annsni

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    In which case we go back to the Scriptures.
     
  14. Crabtownboy

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    ...unless God's Word gives them, which He has. A husband of one wife is a scriptural requirement, and Scripture never contradicts itself.[/QUOTE]

    And I have heard heated discussions on what is meant by "one wife." I bet you have also. :wavey:

    Interpretation, interpretation, interpretation ... that is where the rub comes in.
     
  15. Salty

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    Interpretation, interpretation, interpretation ... that is where the rub comes in.[/QUOTE]


    And then if a women has one wife, well thats a whole other problem....
     
  16. John Toppass

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    Excellent post and biblical too. :thumbs:
     
  17. Johnv

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    Which leads to an attempt to understand, interpret, and apply scripture, which leads to contradictions in said understanding, interpreting, and applying, which leads to the need to go back to scripture, which leads to an attempt to understand, interpret, and apply scripture, which leads to contradictions in said understanding, interpreting, and applying, which leads to the need to go back to scripture, and so on, and so on, and so on.

    In other words, scripture is never imperfect, but our attempt to understand, interpret, and apply scripture is usually imperfect.
     
  18. Marcia

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    If you look at all the relevant verses about men and women and their roles, examples from the NT, and passages on qualifications, there is only one conclusion: women are not to be pastors.

    If the man is the spiritual head of the woman, how can a woman be a pastor over other men?

    And then there's this, which I always post in these discussions:
    Here God gives the 2 reasons, and they are not cultural.
     
  19. Jerome

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    Yes, and one is not really teaching men at church when one calls it a "seminar", a "talk", or a "workshop".:laugh:
     
  20. windcatcher

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    Deborah became a judge.... one example in the OT of a woman given the authority normally held by men. But there are plenty of examples where God elevated women into powerful influence.... but their role retained the consistency of submission to authority. However there are no examples in either the OT or the NT of women holding the position of pastor/priest. I agree with Ann, and believe the scriptures others use to justify a woman as pastor are taken out of context.... which should prove they are being wrongly applied... the more so when you can find no other collaborating evidence in the scriptures to back up their unscriptural interpretation.

    That being said: A woman can speak to the church when under the authority of her husband and the pastor(man) of the church.... or so I believe. If there is any other reason for a woman to fill the pulpit, as in the position and authority of pastor....... then it is because the men have failed to hold their authority and responsibility in answering the call to Christian service. If there were such a situation where this seemed the only answer.... it should be considered as an extreme emergency of last resort and an occasion for mourning (if for no other reason that no man is found who will shepherd the flock), and then only a temporary covering while a qualified man is searched out to fill the position.

    i would stick with my position that a pastor should be a man because the Bible is clear, and hold to my position if in a Bible study or course in school. But among friends, once I made my position clear, I'd refuse to continue the debate after making it clear that I heard their points but wasn't able to accept their conclusion and would not let this issue become a condition of our friendship and hope they valued our friendship to agree to drop it. Indeed, there are other positions more important to the faith and agreement in felloswship with other believers.

    Once people position themselves its unlikely that they will be persuaded differently. If you can find out why they believe what they believe..... the authority behind their position... you may be able to work with them either by using that same authority which in this case is the Bible... or finding out what authority, if any, which is acceptable to both. In some cases, you may have to impune one authority... such as the ideas presented by an author, or politician, or scientist, or scripture taken out of context, by establishing a better authority.... scripture in context, the lies or contradictions in a legislators vote, the discrepancies of interpretation and the influences of philosophical pov or economic interest in scientist with contrasting information expressed by peers. If either one is inflexible in looking at all the evidence..... then it matters not whether his position is right or wrong.... he is myopic and will not be persuaded nor teachable. While it is most efficient to come to whatever is true, first, the reality is that it can be just as important when engaging with others, to know other sides so that one knows why (that is the flaws or errors) which one discards as false.
     
    #20 windcatcher, Dec 2, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 2, 2009

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