Response-ability and Total Inability

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Skandelon, Nov 24, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is not merely a command that implies response-ability and denies the concept of total inability...

    1. It's RESPONSIBILITY that implies the ABILITY to RESPOND.
    2. It's an APPEAL to be reconciled that implies the ability to respond so as to be reconciled.
    3. It's an expression of God desire and longing to gather/save even the unwilling that implies their ability to become willing.
    4. It's God's expression of PATIENCE and LONG-SUFFERING that implies he is waiting on something from us, not Himself.
    5. It's the biblical call for ALL, EVERYONE, ANYONE, WHOSOEVER to come and find healing that implies all, everyone, whosoever and anyone could.
    6. It's the fulfillment of all God's commands (law) by Christ that implies anyone may enter through Him, though they are totally unable to do so by any other means.
    7. It's the biblical accounts where it speaks of the vessels need to 'cleanse themselves' (2 Tim 2:21..below) that implies synergism.
    8. It's the biblical accounts where it speaks of the need to turn to Christ in order to have the veil removed (2 Cor. 2:16, below) that implies synergism.


    2 Tim. 2:20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21 If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

    2 Cor. 2:16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,188
    Likes Received:
    207
    We have dealt with all these arguments thoroughly before but here we go once again:

    The ABLE REPONSE occurred when the total human race acted when Adam acted as the representative of the human race (Rom. 5:12-19). His ABLE response was the response of the totality of human nature. The responsible consequence by the action of the totality of human nature was sin and death and by the very nature of what sin IS, it wrought SEPERATION between the human nature and God which IS death and the law of indwelling sin in fallen human nature. Hence humanity is responsible for its FALLEN NATURE and the universal proof is the universal consequences in generation of every human being whom are characterized by death and sinfound in every offspring of Adam. That fallen nature "IS" by nature at war against God and it IS resistant to God's will. That is not its POTENTIAL but that "IS" what it "IS" by definition, by nature and thus there can be NO OTHER RESPONSE except by CHANGE OF NATURE and that is the docrtrine of total inability = "neither indeed can be."


    The text that this is based upon has no reference to lost people but only to the saved. The pronouns used in 2 Cor. 5:17-20 prove this beyond any reasonable doubt. When Paul referred to the unreconciled world he referred to that world as "their" and "them." When Paul referred to those reconciled to God already in the sense of salvation he used the pronouns "we" and "us." When he spoke to the unreconciled condition of the saved members at Corinth who were unreconciled with EACH OTHER and thus WITH GOD in regard to fellowship he used the pronouns "YE" and "YOU."

    Secondly, repentance and faith when being addressed to lost people are found in the IMPERATIVE MODE as a command never as an "appeal."


    God's patience is required because all the elect come through fallen Adamic offspring and wrath upon the non-elect would defeat God's redemptive purpose for the elect who come through them and among whom there is an intricate cause and consequential relationship. God takes no pleasure in the disobedience of any human to His revealed will including His elect and He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked but it is His revealed will that none continue in sin and none die but that all should obey His revealed will and come to repentance and faith. However, none will honor His revealed will as all will sin, violate His word, all will die and all will perish and justly so as the just consequences of their sins demand, but God has sovereignly decreed to exercise not merely justice to glorify His name, but mercy in choosing a innumerable multitude of sinners to save in spite of their just condemnation for His own glory (Rom. 9:18-24).


    He is not willing that any of His elect should perish and thus the longsuffering and patience of God with the non-elect through whom the elect come.


    The command of the gospel is that all should repent and believe and whosoever will may come. The invitation is for the willing, not the unwilling, for those burdened and heavy ladened with sin, not those who love their sins, for the hungery and thirsty not for the self-satisfied. The Fallen human nature is INCAPABLE of these responses due to what it IS by nature and thus the Father gave the elect to the Son (Jn. 17:2) to come by faith to him (Jn. 6:37-39) while NEVER DRAWING the non-elect (Jn. 6:64-65) because they were NEVER GIVEN to Son because all who were given do in fact hunger and thirst, are burdened with sin and willing because of God's grace "wrought in them" (Jn. 3:19-21).

    There are no means that can enable the fallen nature to willing yeild to God either before or after regenration (Rom. 7:18; 8:7-8). Due to what the fallen nature of mankind 'IS" the only possible way a fallen man will come to Christ is by providing ANOTHER NATURE that is "willing" BY NATURE.

    2 Tim. 2:21 refers to all who are already IN GOD"S HOUSEHOLD or family. His purposes and gifts and measures of grace and faith differ from one to another according to the purpose He has for each (Eph. 2:10b; Rom. 12:4,7; etc.).



    You probably mean 2 Cor. 3:16 although 2 Cor. 2:14-16 demonstrates God is equally glorified by refusal or repentance to the gospel message.

    However, in regard to the text you intended you have simply jerked a text out of context. The ability to turn is not attributed to the person as this veil is UPON THEIR HEART and no man can change his heart or perform internal operation upon His own heart. 2 Cor. 3:3-6 demonstrates this is solely the "power" of God and not of men under the new covenant work of God by the Spirit of God who does the changing (2 Cor. 3:18).
     
  3. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was talking about the fallen man's ability to respond to God's revelation, not un-fallen Adam's ability to respond. All this reply does is confirm my point that your view had "un-responsible" people being treated as if they are responsible.

    Not once in the account of the Fall does scripture even suggest that man loses their responsibility as a result of the fall. If anything, just the opposite it taught as now we know both good and evil. Plus, the message of reconciliation is obviously meant for those who NEED reconciliation, thus there is no reason to suggest that message is insufficient to accomplish its given purpose to enable a fallen man a response. All I ask of you is to stop calling men "responsible" when in your system they are not responsible, they are merely born condemned and without hope...there is no response, no choice, no hope, period. Own your dogma and don't try to decorate it with nicer sounding words.

    One thread is enough for this discussion, so I'll leave this one for that thread...

    I'm sorry but that REALLY makes little to no sense whatsoever. You really appear to be stretching the text to make your dogma fit in it. God is patient and long-suffering because he is waiting on a response. Why? BECAUSE MEN ARE RESPONSE-ABLE.

    Your system also completely confounds the use of means like 'envy.' Romans 11 speaks of God provoking man's will with the envy so as to enable them to be saved. Why on earth would the provoking of man's will with envy be necessary in a monergistic system?

    Just say it like it is. You mean to say that God unchangeably decrees that which does not please him, yet He is please to do all things for His Glory. Thus, God is pleased and unpleased at the same time for things that He determines and yet doesn't want to happen. All clear. I guess that makes sense for a person playing both sides of the chess board to ensure his victory.

    Sounds like an "appeal" or an "offer" to me.

    Patient with who? What is he waiting on? He can irresistibly call his elect 'through' at any time He wants. There is nothing for which to be patient, and I believe you know that. In your system, patience is a mere show...kind of like God 'holding out his hands to rebellious men' and 'longing to gather them to salvation.' Or his frustration, and anger for those who remain in rebellion.

    It's like chaining your dog to a post because he bit someone and then calling him to come to you to make up and when he doesn't come you 'hold out your hands to him, longing him to come' and tell everyone how patient you are with him wanting him to come to you, all the while he remains chained. Now imagine doing that with 10 dogs at the same time and only releasing two of them from their chains while still pretending to call and want them all to come to you as 'patient' dog owner. It's just silly.

    But whose WILL are we talking about because in your system there is ONLY one will at work yet statements like this try to subtly invoke some sense of human responsibility in this decision, but there IS NONE!
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,188
    Likes Received:
    207
    You still refuse to deal straightforwardly with the Bibical definition of what "IS" the fallen nature. If you dared to deal with it this debate would be over and your position would be exposed as error.

    The Fallen nature "IS" enmity/state of war against God. That is what it IS not what it MAY become! The Fallen nature "IS" resistant to God's revealed will. That is what it "IS" not what it may or may not be or do. Hence, by its very Biblically defined nature it is not only TOTALLY DEPRAVED but does not have and NEVER WILL HAVE any ability to BE anything but what it IS by nature - "neither indeed can be" (total inabiity). There is no salvation for the fallen nature of man - none - zilch - nada here on earth or ever. That is why man must be BORN AGAIN or receive a NEW NATURE that is not at enmity and is subject to the revealed will of God. The fallen nature is only destined to destruction in death of the flesh.

    You dare not address my exposition on Romans 8:7 because grammatically and by word definitions that text totally exposes and condemns your whole soteriology.
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,188
    Likes Received:
    207
    I never suggested or inferred anything different. Human nature had ability in Adam and in Adam the human race was held RESPONSIBLE for becoming SPIRITUALLY DEAD = inability. That fallen nature now in Adam's offspring is irreversably at enmity with God and irreversably resistant to the revealed will of God (repent and believe) and thus incapable - "neither indeed can be" forever. That is precisely why men MUST be BORN AGAIN, provided a NEW NATURE, a DIFFERENT NATURE that is the CREATED product of God.
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,188
    Likes Received:
    207
    No my system does not confound the use of means but they are equally elected by God as is the persons chosen to salvation.


    9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    The elect of God. He is not willing that any of those given to the Son should fail to come to Christ in repentance and faith:

    Jn. 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


    Jn. 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    Peter goes on to cleary state that the Longsuffering of God results in salvation, the kind of salvation that those like you regard too "hard" and so you wrest the scripture.

    15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
    16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
     
  7. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    But what do they accomplish that is not already accomplished by the irresistible work of regeneration, by which man's will is supernaturally made to be willing? For example, the means of 'envy' used to provoke the will of Jews so that they may be saved (Rm 11:14)...what exactly does envy accomplish in your system? What does it do?


    Read the context of that proof text:

    14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.​

    There is no way anyone could read that passage and walk away with the belief that Peter was meaning to say that God's patience is with a preselected few people, who will certainly never fall from their secure position thus guaranteeing they will be saved. If anything, he is saying almost the exact opposite by warning them to continue to be diligent lest they fall from their position...a virtually meaningless warning if your dogma is accurate.

    But, indeed, our Lord's patience does mean salvation for many who would have otherwise been lost had he not been patient with them...including those of us who are saved and still NEED His patience and forgiveness as WE (not Him) make poor choices.
     
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ignoring the fact that this conclusion has yet to be established biblically (I know you believe it has, but I don't)...let's just accept it for the sake of argument.

    Who designed it to be this way? You keep avoiding this by insisting that man is responsible for being spiritually dead, but WHO designed spiritual death to equal corpse like inability and enmity? Couldn't God have designed the fall to result in separation and a broken relationship but still reserved the natural ability to respond to an appeal for reconciliation?

    Before you answer...I'm not asking you to adopt this view. I'm simply asking IS IT POSSIBLE? Could God have designed the world where the fall would NOT have resulted in the total inability of mankind to respond to his appeals apart from regeneration? If so, doesn't that mean that GOD is the one who made that determination? Just as a parent decides the appropriate consequences/punishments for a child, doesn't God decide the consequences for rebellion?

    I am not sure how you get around this one.
     
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh, and you continue to chide me about my definition of man's fallen nature as if I haven't answered that a dozen times already in one way or another. I believe exactly as you do with one exception. I believe the power of God's Word, His appeal to be reconciled, His divinely inspired truth, is more powerful than man's fallen nature. God's cure is enabling, life giving, freeing, but still able to be traded in for lies and rejected.

    You think that proving man's nature is disabled when left alone seals your case, but it doesn't. Why? BECAUSE GOD HASN'T LEFT US ALONE!!!

    He sent Christ.
    He sent Apostles.
    He sent the WORD.
    He sent His Bride.
    He sent His Spirit.

    What more must He do to enable the sick to respond? You presume that he also needs to provide an irresistible, inward supernatural working that scripture never ONCE expounds upon in any great length at all.

    Even Calvinists have to admit that their 'effectual calling' or 'irresistible grace' is only supported through implications of a few proof texts. You don't even have a biblical name for it. Calvinists had to come up with one and they even differ on what to call it, and some even differ as to whether its the work of regeneration or some other separate working. YET, that calling is the ONLY means with any power in your system. The means accomplish nothing apart from this so called 'effectual call.' It certainly seems that such a powerful thing would at least get a chapter to two explaining it. Contrast that with THE WORD. The Word of God, the Gospel, is talked about over and over and over and is spoken of as powerful and enabling and freeing. Why presume its not sufficient? Why insist that God had to not only give a gracious provision to enable a response, but had to make the response for us too? There is no biblical grounds for such a belief.
     
    #9 Skandelon, Nov 26, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2013
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,188
    Likes Received:
    207
    God "works all things" by providential design to bring the elect to salvation including the persons, problems, instrumental means of conveying the gospel, as nothing occurs by accident when a person is saved. God can use our hatred, our jealously, our sins, our habits, that of others in bringing about the event in time and space of our salvation. He used Paul's hatred of Christianity to bring him into constant contact with the witness of the gospel by the Christians he persecuted. Your objection is lacking careful consideration.


    The KJV says "IS" salvation but "MEANS" salvation is as good. Note Peter does not say "POTENTIALLY MEANS" or "POTENTIALLY IS" salvation. In other words it is EFFECTUAL to the salvation of "US-WARD" the elect as it is expressly God's will that NONE of those given to Christ for eternal life by the Father be lost. Hence, God's patience and longsuffering in holding back his wrath upon the world is only because there are more given to the Son to yet save and thus it "MEANS SALVATION" for sure. Only when "the fullness of the gentile" elect come in will God turn back to Israel and only when all are saved will His vengeance be poured out. So, his longsuffering in holding back wrath "MEANS SALVATION" of more elect and is thus toward "US-WARD."

    Longsuffering "MEANS SALVATION" of the kind that you are wrestling with and perverting God's Word to deny as Peter goes on to say.
     
  11. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    But you are not addressing the real question. What do those THINGS, those 'instrumental means' actually accomplish that is not accomplished by the supernatural effectual work of regeneration?

    The answer you are looking for is: NOTHING

    Ok, sure. Next time you preach or teach be sure to end your diatribe of Calvinism with the phrase, "make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him...be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

    I'm sure that won't confuse anyone at all. :rolleyes:
     
  12. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,410
    Likes Received:
    328
    Scripture Quoted Is From The NIV

    You neglected verses 15 and 16:

    "Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation,just as our dear brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters,speaking of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand,which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures,to their own destruction."
     
  13. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,410
    Likes Received:
    328
    Scripture Cited Is From The NIV

    And let's not forget the concluding verse of chapter 3:

    "But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever! Amen."
     
  14. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Huh, Rippon, read back a few posts. We discussed the entire context and I'm quite certain no objective reader is going to presume that God's patience with the believers in this passage equals the assertion that God is ONLY patient with a preselected few who he will irresistibly save. You guys are really stretching it on this one...
     
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,188
    Likes Received:
    207
    Regeneration is not possible without the "substance" of faith which is the hope founded upon the promise of the gospel. The elect must have the gospel communicated to his PHYSICAL senses when God empowers it as a creative word. Hence, physical means are used to convey it to that point.

    Second, the fallen nature is capable of "worldly sorrow" - 2 Cor. 7:10. That is the conscience can be trained, instructed in righteousness and inflict misery upon the lost man. Providential circumstances can be used to inflict misery upon the lost man. Jealously, hatred, oppression, anger, etc., can be used by God to inflict misery and reactions upon the lost man and thus bring him circumstantially to the precise point where He is regenerated. The transition point between worldly and "godly sorrow" which is always effectual to salvation is the CREATIVE EMPOWERMENT of God's Spirit.


    Again, more proof that God's elect are in view. He is speaking to the saved elect to comfort them in regard to why Christ is wating to come and end their suffering and tribulation by wicked men. Longsuffering "MEANS SALVATION" for all of God's elect according to the "hard" doctrine of election taught by Paul that you and others mishandle, pervert and repudiate by pure hatred of His word.

    I'm sure that won't confuse anyone at all. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
     
  16. Skandelon

    Skandelon
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    0
    Very well stated. I'm not being sarcastic in any way when I say that, I really mean it. This could be in a systematic book. However, what I still heard was, it does nothing except change the 'circumstances' physically of the individual....you wrote, "...thus bring him circumstantially to the precise point where He is regenerated." Isn't that all you are saying? That the means do nothing more than affect the man's circumstances, but the real change, the ONLY change, is completely and totally resting upon the supernatural work of regeneration? Which goes back to the original point, what do the circumstances even matter...and why does the scripture even refer to them as being the motive for such changes?
     
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,188
    Likes Received:
    207
    Well, thank you for the compliment even though you disagree with my statement.

    Of course the "means" do not obtain the end, they only bring the individual to the point determined by God! Only regeneration obtains the end - salvation.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Excellent points!

    Also

    "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him Not" John 1.

    "I STAND at the door and KNOCK if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in" Rev 3.

    "9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Romans 10

    And of course the "Whosever will" of Rev 22:17
    17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,134
    Likes Received:
    52
    God grants to the elect what is needed in order for them to 'freely come" unto jesus and get saved, as by themselves, in sin natures, will continually reject Him and not get saved!
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,134
    Likes Received:
    52
    Sinners are made spiritual alive again by the work of the Holy spirit, as in their sin natures, can do NOTHING to come back to life!

    Until he quickens their herats/minds to receive jesus, they are like statues, thathear the message, but remain steadfast oppossed!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...