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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Protestant, Dec 5, 2013.

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  1. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Were Jesus' parables contained in the Bible, meaning were they quoted Scripture, yes or no.
     
    #61 webdog, Dec 11, 2013
  2. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    How could I ignore you?

    I mean, we get skunks up here where I live, and believe me, you can't ignore a skunk.

    Now I hope you understand I meant that as a good natured joke. :tongue3:

    I've got to go to bed, but I'll be back tomorrow, and I'll look for your posts. :thumbs:
     
    #62 Winman, Dec 11, 2013
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    It is the foreknowledge of God that is always in play. God never acts out of total ignorance.

    Which makes God the saboteur of his own plan.

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1 becomes in Calvinism "a statement about the forgetfulness of God" or the "self-defeating choices of God".

    But in the Arminian POV it is about the choices of the lost "who loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil" and not "because God forgot to do the necessary when He came to HIS OWN"

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #63 BobRyan, Dec 12, 2013
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    What the lost CAN do - vs what the Lost cannot do.

    [FONT=&quot]Rom 8[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]7 because [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

    Those who claim they are not "able to subject themselves" to the Law of God - are claiming the position of the lost - "in the flesh".

    However Romans 10 points out what the lost CAN do that "results in salvation". (And I think they can do it by the power of the Holy Spirit who "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" - not just the born-again, not just the regenerate)

    [FONT=&quot]Rom 10[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
    9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
    10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." [/FONT]
     
    #64 BobRyan, Dec 12, 2013
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Isn't that kind of begging the question? You have to prove that its not within the abilities of the fallen nature to respond to God's appeal for man to be reconciled from that fall. To do that you have to either establish:

    1. That God's appeal is just too weak in nature to enable the fallen man to respond.

    or

    2. That man's fallen nature is just too strong for God's appeal to have an enabling effect.

    Good luck. ;)
     
    #65 Skandelon, Dec 12, 2013
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I do.

    Jesus said, "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks."

    God doesn't have to forgive someone who seeks forgiveness, He CHOOSES to. He doesn't save the humble because humble people deserve to be saved, He chooses to do so on the basis of his mercy. Salvation, and divine love, is based on God gracious choice.

    I'm neither, so I wouldn't know.

    Absolutely.
     
    #66 Skandelon, Dec 12, 2013
  7. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I agree. Those who turn to the Lord will be cleanse. Those who repent will be forgiven. Those who ask will receive. Those who seek will find.

    You seem to think the verses above deny the need of man to first respond to God's calling, but consider the truth:

    Ezekiel 18:31
    Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel?
     
    #67 Skandelon, Dec 12, 2013
  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Ok, this one got buried...

    I can't see how that is possible given the CLEAR and obvious contrast that Paul draws between the Jews who have 'grown calloused' and the Gentiles 'who will listen.' (vs. 28) But I suppose you will read it to mean whatever you want it to mean?

    Romans 11's discourse explains this contrast in detail as Israel is being 'cut off from the olive tree' verses the Gentiles being 'grafted into the tree.'

    In neither case can you seem to point to an substantive difference in the nature of one "hardened/cut off" and one "not hardened/grafted in."
     
    #68 Skandelon, Dec 12, 2013
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I am not quite sure what text you are referring to, however, are you not making a presumption concerning what may or may not be occurring within the Gentiles?

    You seem to believe that hardening prevents God's intervention to transform that condition on who He wills (Rom. 9:16,18)??? Hardening certainly justifies judgement but it certainly does not prevent God from exercising mercy if he so chooses as Paul was in a hardening condition when God saved him. You can't manifest hardeming much more than killing Christians can you?
     
    #69 The Biblicist, Dec 12, 2013
  10. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    I didn’t realize you were a backwoodsman.

    Indoor plumbing and electricity are such a blessing.

    Have you had them long?
     
    #70 Protestant, Dec 12, 2013
  11. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no.
     
    #71 Protestant, Dec 12, 2013
  12. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    You didn’t hear either answer.
     
    #72 Protestant, Dec 12, 2013
  13. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    We lived so far back in the woods, nobody lived behind us. :laugh:


    While I would love to take credit for that, that was Tennessee Ernie Ford.
     
    #73 Winman, Dec 12, 2013
  14. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Christians do not believe in good luck. We believe in the good Lord.

    There is another possibility which you have not considered.

    It is that which is stated quite clearly in God’s Word:

    God humbled himself to become man to accomplish that which Adam and all his progeny could not and would not do…..obey God perfectly.

    Through His obedience men could now be justified by faith in the perfect work and person of Christ.

    Though Christ committed no sin, doing nothing less than holy works perfectly pleasing to God, men hated Him to such an extent that they nailed Him to a cross.

    The fault was not in God, who did not and cannot sin.

    The fault lay in men, who could only sin.

    But despite their hatred, Christ died for the ungodly.

    The Bible calls those for whom Christ died ‘the Elect.’

    The Elect are the Chosen…….chosen for salvation.

    God the Father did the choosing….before the Elect were born…..before they had done anything good to deserve God’s favor.

    He personally selected them out of the mass of sinful humanity.

    It was His choice to be merciful to them.

    He did not have to be merciful to anyone.

    He freely, willingly chose to do so.

    God's will is truly free.

    Those He elected to salvation will infallibly be saved for all eternity.

    God says so.

    God cannot lie.

    God can guarantee the salvation of the Elect because the salvation of the Elect is all of God’s effective work which will infallibly accomplish that very purpose.

    And God cannot fail to accomplish His purpose in any work He does.

    Otherwise He would not be God.

    Does God require faith in Christ?

    God gives the Elect the faith necessary to believe unto salvation.

    In fact, He graciously gives the Elect all the gifts necessary to salvation.

    This is why we say, 'salvation is of the Lord.'

    That, in summation, is how men are saved.

    Those sinful men whom the Lord does not choose for salvation are passed by.

    No injustice was done by passing them by.

    Grace is owed no man.

    Justice is owed every man.

    Justice owed the Elect was satisfied in Christ's substitutionary death.

    Justice owed the Reprobate will never be fully satisfied by their eternal punishment.

    Is not God too wonderful for words and worthy of our heartfelt worship?
     
    #74 Protestant, Dec 12, 2013
  15. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    I understand that ‘labels’ can be restrictive.

    I would greatly appreciate your enlightening me as to the differences in your belief system and that of the Arminian/Pelagian belief system.
     
    #75 Protestant, Dec 12, 2013
  16. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    You are confusing God’s Will of Precept/Command (which is man’s duty to obey) with man’s will and desire to actually obey it.

    “Seek and ye shall find” is the precept.

    “There is none that seeketh after God” is the universal refusal of man to obey the precept.

    Those who do seek have been supernaturally drawn by the Father.

    “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”​
     
    #76 Protestant, Dec 12, 2013
  17. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    The above quoted Scripture is in complete harmony with the words of Jesus:

    “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

    The answer to the dilemma is found in Ezekiel 36:26 and John 3:3-8.

    The righteousness the Jews seek is false righteousness.

    The Lord warns they are on the road to destruction.

    Their only way out is to admit their offenses and seek His grace and mercy.

    "God be merciful to me a sinner."

    Those who do seek His grace and mercy have been drawn by the Father.

    Those drawn by the Father are those elected to salvation by the Father.

    "turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God."
     
    #77 Protestant, Dec 12, 2013
  18. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Like they could've gotten a new heart on their own? :laugh:

    The LORD commands MANY things we cannot do on our own, yet skan doesn't get this and thus misunderstands much. These could have done none of this on their own. None of it.

    You're on the right track Protestant. Carry on.
     
    #78 preacher4truth, Dec 12, 2013
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Which is illustrated in the writings of Paul in Romans 10 -- as compared to Romans 8.


    What the lost CAN do - vs what the Lost cannot do.

    [FONT=&quot]Rom 8[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]7 because [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]does not subject itself to the Law of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for it [/FONT][FONT=&quot]is not even able to do so[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

    Those who claim they are not "able to subject themselves" to the Law of God - are claiming the position of the lost - "in the flesh".

    However Romans 10 points out what the lost CAN do that "results in salvation". (And I think they can do it by the power of the Holy Spirit who "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" - not just the born-again, not just the regenerate)

    [FONT=&quot]Rom 10[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
    9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
    10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

    in Christ,

    Bob
    [/FONT]
     
    #79 BobRyan, Dec 12, 2013
  20. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    No one is suggesting they could. :laugh::laugh:

    Ezekiel 18:31
    Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel?

    God gives the new heart to those who confess (rid themselves of offense).

    On our own? If you can find one quote from me in my decade of postings which states that we can do these things "ON OUR OWN" I'll resign this forum and log off forever...you will never have to put up with me again. Will you take that challenge? <anticipating the sound of crickets>

    I think your reply, or lack thereof, will reveal who doesn't 'get this.'
     
    #80 Skandelon, Dec 12, 2013
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