Responsible = Response Able

I didn't know Pharoah was really a hardened Jew.

 

Skandelon,
Well reasoned post. I see you are not getting any response from the Calvinists. I guess they have no response because one of the pillars of their doctrine cannot stand in light of truth!

 

Pharoah asked Moses 'who is the Lord that I should know him?'

How is he in any way a paralell to the hardened Jew, who did not ask this question, but was hardened against receiving Christ as the Messiah?

Pharoah is better seen as a paralell of the total depravity in mankind in the world, (Egypt) lost and in need of the Lord, but declaring in and from his totally depraved sin nature, 'who is the Lord that I should know him?'

That is a better paralell, he just doesn't fit the paralell of those to whom the oracles of God were delivered.

Bro. Dallas

Just got back from Cookeville where we had a blessed meeting in the Lord this morning and a wonderfully blessed informal discussion in which the people there determined to covenant together to constitute an independent body of believers.

Found a building we may be able to use for meetings. The day has been wonderfully blessed of God. After meeting with these brethren and sisters, met also with a PB group seeking to constitute there and discussed many things in sweet grace according to the word of God as to why our differences hinder my joining myself to them and the determination to pursue the constitution of a Landmark Missionary Baptist Church proclaiming the doctrines of Sovereign Grace in Cookeville Tn. Please pray for the continued blessing of the Lord upon us and for our humble submission to his will for ourselves (me, wife and children and the body there planning the organization).

 

The Pharoah is not a physical parallel, but rather a discriptive parallel, depicting the concept!

 

Paul made the comparison, but never said Pharoah is either a direct, a physical, nor any other kind of paralell to Israel. Pharoah is in Egypt, the best paralell he can represent is that of the carnal man dead in trespasses and sins, Egypt being the world, therefore, Pharoah if any kind of paralell is to the lost man only.

Bro. Dallas

 

Moses said (paraphrase) they will not believe you have sent me, what will tell them you are called, God said I am that I am.

Israel did not ask Moses who is the Lord that we should know him, Pharoah did.

Pharoah is a paralell, but not of hardened Israel. Even if Calvinists do agree with that doen't mean I have to or that I will. If I were a real Calvinist my profile would say Presbyterian and not Landmark Missionary Baptist.

You are probably not telling me what else Calvinists are saying in regards to this comparison and only telling me enough to show the position you are attempting to prove. I simply do not agree that Pharoah proves your position. If you don't agree, that is ok with me.

Bro. Dallas

 

Yes, but I do not believe this negates the total depravity of all men.

Bro. Dallas

 

In this context, Pharaoh is a parallel of Israel, because Israel, by simple physical inheritance, is lost (v.8, 10:1-3). That is the point he is making throughout the passage, and it creates a great irony, after all, Israel is who God had raised, and had similarly "raised" and hardened Pharaoh for. So you can't take what he says about Pharaoh (or Esau's lack of calling) and apply it to the lost state of all the unsaved.

 

Ok, EricB, I am reading, you have my attention. Now, explain to me why this cannot be applied to all the lost?

Your statement would seem to lead to two seedism.

So, you can see I am in need of more explanation and more so on my part greater understanding.

Wouldn't the argument be from an Arminian point of view that all men are hardened until acted upon by the power of the Holy Spirit in the general call and thereby enabled to make a decision of either acceptance or rejection? Simply because men are depraved, but not to the degree of totality as argued on this forum (though perhaps not by Arminius himself); but that without a hardening then what prevents the so called non-elect of Calvinism from accepting the so called general call of Arminianism? This, imho, creates a very serious difficulty.

Understand I have read for study neither Arminius' nor Calvin's works.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

Thank you Skandelon,
But I cannot see the distinction made. The issue is responsibility. So, I believe that men are commanded everywhere to repent, but I do not believe this means as some claim. All men obviously do not. Now, if all men have an ability to objectively receive or to reject the message of the gospel, then there has to be a supernatural hardening because it is obvious that in cases of full presence of mind no person would deny their child of necessities of life etc. So, then what prevents them from denying themselves the same blessings of eternal life if they possess the abilities to engage in those benefits prior to any quickening to remove the desires of their own will.

Some will argue for a quickening that enables men to either accept or reject. I do not believe this is true either.

Having tasted of the Holy Spirit, how can a person then reject these things?

I am persuaded the only position to receive Biblically is in line with the TULIP associated with Calvin.

May God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

What do you mean by judicially hardened?

I perhaps have misunderstood you to say the Jews were not depraved as are others.

But I understand the Bible to say that one is not a Jew outwardly.

Now, I cannot make a distinction that in the end determines God's elect to be only national Israel.

The argument I see in Arminianism is that man is depraved (man being generally and not limited to nationalities); however, within this depravity, is preserved in man enough free moral will to make a decision either for Christ or against Christ.

I disagree with this. I believe Pharoah at times witnessed the power of God and was overwhelmingly convinced, therefore the necessity of God hardening him.

I understand the issue of Jewish hardening as being a question of receiving Jesus as their King. However, how much hardening is necessary for God to enact I do not know. For centuries the Jews expected the Messiah, and just as long their prophets were provided with messages regarding the nature of this messiah. Did God blind them to the fact of his work as their priest as well as their king?

In this way, Pharoah is not paralell to a Jew. At the time of the institution of the passover in Israel would it have been possible for an Egyptian to have heard the command of God regarding the blood of the passover be placed upon the doorpost of the home and to have done this? If so, would the angel of death passed over that household?

All men are in the same boat here.

I also wonder if we shouldn't begin another topic, or to understand how this issue relates to the topic of this thread.

Bro. Dallas