Responsible = Response Able

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Skandelon, Mar 2, 2004.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    Most, if not all, believers when first confronted with the Calvinistic dogma fight against it. Even Calvinists testify that they are "dragged kicking and screaming to the doctrine by the scripture." Calvinists often point toward this repulsion that we as believers have to their doctrines as being some kind of badge of honor. They often argue that the repulsion that humanity feels to such doctrines are warned about in scripture and therefore offer more validity to their claims.

    What is it about the Calvinistic dogma that believers hate so much? And does the scripture really ever warn us about such things?

    I remember when I first was confronted by Calvinism my objection had to do with RESPONSIBLITY. Who is responsible? How can God be in complete control of my choices and still hold me responsible? How can I be unable to respond and still resonsible for my response?

    This is a reasonable question and one I think Calvinists must answer. And they do...at least they THINK they do.

    They go to Romans 9 and quote, "God has mercy on who he wants to have mercy and he hardens who he wants to harden. Then one of you will say to me, then why does he still blame us, for who resists his will?"

    They actually believe that Paul is addressing the objection of Arminians concerning responsiblity in salvation, but I assure you he is NOT.

    The one making the objection is not a non-elect reprobate destined to hell saying, "Why do you still blame us.." Instead, it is a Jew who has been temporarily hardened. If you read Romans 9-11 that is made quite clear.

    Look at the previous verses. Pharoah is a perfect parallel. He was hardened in his rebellion so that he would'nt let God's people go. God didn't want one of the plaques to convince him before the Passover was accomplished. In the same way, Jews were hardened in their rebellion so that Jesus wouldn't be believed before the Passover sacrifice was accomplished on the cross. The scripture is clear that had they not been judicially hardened they might have believed and been saved (Acts 28, John 12 etc).

    Therefore, the very objection that would have kept most believers from ever becoming Calvinistic is never really answered, they just think it is. The objection still stands unanswered.
     
  2. Frogman

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    I didn't know Pharoah was really a hardened Jew.
     
  3. Yelsew2

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    Skandelon,
    Well reasoned post. I see you are not getting any response from the Calvinists. I guess they have no response because one of the pillars of their doctrine cannot stand in light of truth!
     
  4. Skandelon

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    I never said Pharoah was really a hardened Jew. I said he was a "perfect parallel" to the Jews hardening.
     
  5. Frogman

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    Pharoah asked Moses 'who is the Lord that I should know him?'

    How is he in any way a paralell to the hardened Jew, who did not ask this question, but was hardened against receiving Christ as the Messiah?

    Pharoah is better seen as a paralell of the total depravity in mankind in the world, (Egypt) lost and in need of the Lord, but declaring in and from his totally depraved sin nature, 'who is the Lord that I should know him?'

    That is a better paralell, he just doesn't fit the paralell of those to whom the oracles of God were delivered.

    Bro. Dallas

    Just got back from Cookeville where we had a blessed meeting in the Lord this morning and a wonderfully blessed informal discussion in which the people there determined to covenant together to constitute an independent body of believers.

    Found a building we may be able to use for meetings. The day has been wonderfully blessed of God. After meeting with these brethren and sisters, met also with a PB group seeking to constitute there and discussed many things in sweet grace according to the word of God as to why our differences hinder my joining myself to them and the determination to pursue the constitution of a Landmark Missionary Baptist Church proclaiming the doctrines of Sovereign Grace in Cookeville Tn. Please pray for the continued blessing of the Lord upon us and for our humble submission to his will for ourselves (me, wife and children and the body there planning the organization).
     
  6. Yelsew2

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    The Pharoah is not a physical parallel, but rather a discriptive parallel, depicting the concept!
     
  7. Skandelon

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    Dallas,

    Take that up with Paul, he is the one who did the comparing in Romans 9.
     
  8. Frogman

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    Paul made the comparison, but never said Pharoah is either a direct, a physical, nor any other kind of paralell to Israel. Pharoah is in Egypt, the best paralell he can represent is that of the carnal man dead in trespasses and sins, Egypt being the world, therefore, Pharoah if any kind of paralell is to the lost man only.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  9. Skandelon

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    Dallas,

    Don't you believe the Jews were hardened? Even Calvinists admit Paul is drawing a comparison here. I don't understand what the problem is.
     
  10. Frogman

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    Moses said (paraphrase) they will not believe you have sent me, what will tell them you are called, God said I am that I am.

    Israel did not ask Moses who is the Lord that we should know him, Pharoah did.

    Pharoah is a paralell, but not of hardened Israel. Even if Calvinists do agree with that doen't mean I have to or that I will. If I were a real Calvinist my profile would say Presbyterian and not Landmark Missionary Baptist.

    You are probably not telling me what else Calvinists are saying in regards to this comparison and only telling me enough to show the position you are attempting to prove. I simply do not agree that Pharoah proves your position. If you don't agree, that is ok with me.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  11. Skandelon

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    Dallas,

    You didn't answer my question. Do you believe the Jews were hardened?
     
  12. Frogman

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    Yes, but I do not believe this negates the total depravity of all men.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  13. Skandelon

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    Why not? Scripture clearly says that had they not been hardened they might have seen, heard, understood and believed. Do you deny that?

    Acts 28, Mark 4, Matt 13, John 12
     
  14. Eric B

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    In this context, Pharaoh is a parallel of Israel, because Israel, by simple physical inheritance, is lost (v.8, 10:1-3). That is the point he is making throughout the passage, and it creates a great irony, after all, Israel is who God had raised, and had similarly "raised" and hardened Pharaoh for. So you can't take what he says about Pharaoh (or Esau's lack of calling) and apply it to the lost state of all the unsaved.
     
  15. Skandelon

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    Thanks Eric. Well stated.
     
  16. Frogman

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    Ok, EricB, I am reading, you have my attention. Now, explain to me why this cannot be applied to all the lost?

    Your statement would seem to lead to two seedism.

    So, you can see I am in need of more explanation and more so on my part greater understanding.

    Wouldn't the argument be from an Arminian point of view that all men are hardened until acted upon by the power of the Holy Spirit in the general call and thereby enabled to make a decision of either acceptance or rejection? Simply because men are depraved, but not to the degree of totality as argued on this forum (though perhaps not by Arminius himself); but that without a hardening then what prevents the so called non-elect of Calvinism from accepting the so called general call of Arminianism? This, imho, creates a very serious difficulty.

    Understand I have read for study neither Arminius' nor Calvin's works.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  17. Skandelon

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    No, I don't believe all men are judicially hardened in the same manner the Jews were at this time. In fact the scripture clearly teaches that had they not been hardened they "might see, hear, understand and believe." People can be self hardened but this is no more than stubborness and that can be changed by the persuasive message of the gospel. Judical hardening, meaning from God, cannot be changed by any external or internal persuasion. The Jews were judicially sealed in their disobedience until God's purpose was accomplished.
     
  18. Frogman

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    Thank you Skandelon,
    But I cannot see the distinction made. The issue is responsibility. So, I believe that men are commanded everywhere to repent, but I do not believe this means as some claim. All men obviously do not. Now, if all men have an ability to objectively receive or to reject the message of the gospel, then there has to be a supernatural hardening because it is obvious that in cases of full presence of mind no person would deny their child of necessities of life etc. So, then what prevents them from denying themselves the same blessings of eternal life if they possess the abilities to engage in those benefits prior to any quickening to remove the desires of their own will.

    Some will argue for a quickening that enables men to either accept or reject. I do not believe this is true either.

    Having tasted of the Holy Spirit, how can a person then reject these things?

    I am persuaded the only position to receive Biblically is in line with the TULIP associated with Calvin.

    May God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  19. Skandelon

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    Dallas,

    I don't understand what you are seaching for here. The Jews were being judicially hardened, the Gentiles were not. Do you agree with this or not? If not, please explain why.
     
  20. Frogman

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    What do you mean by judicially hardened?

    I perhaps have misunderstood you to say the Jews were not depraved as are others.

    But I understand the Bible to say that one is not a Jew outwardly.

    Now, I cannot make a distinction that in the end determines God's elect to be only national Israel.

    The argument I see in Arminianism is that man is depraved (man being generally and not limited to nationalities); however, within this depravity, is preserved in man enough free moral will to make a decision either for Christ or against Christ.

    I disagree with this. I believe Pharoah at times witnessed the power of God and was overwhelmingly convinced, therefore the necessity of God hardening him.

    I understand the issue of Jewish hardening as being a question of receiving Jesus as their King. However, how much hardening is necessary for God to enact I do not know. For centuries the Jews expected the Messiah, and just as long their prophets were provided with messages regarding the nature of this messiah. Did God blind them to the fact of his work as their priest as well as their king?

    In this way, Pharoah is not paralell to a Jew. At the time of the institution of the passover in Israel would it have been possible for an Egyptian to have heard the command of God regarding the blood of the passover be placed upon the doorpost of the home and to have done this? If so, would the angel of death passed over that household?

    All men are in the same boat here.

    I also wonder if we shouldn't begin another topic, or to understand how this issue relates to the topic of this thread.

    Bro. Dallas
     

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