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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Reformed, Oct 5, 2015.
Why does it seem fitting?
Not to butt in but I think perhaps "rendering" was the word you were looking for. Just wanted to let you know so you can edit before the edit function ends (although I am not sure if the new forum does that).
And I would agree with the OP. Salvation in the Old Testament, like most issues, were primarily in the temporal/physical perspective. The Redemption offered by Christ was a promise looked for by Israel and those who loved God and were familiar with the Word of God.
Nobody understood that the redemption Christ would provide would be salvation from sin, rather than deliverance from foreign nations. The closest we get to that is John the Baptist, and even he sent two disciples to inquire of Christ if He was the One they looked for, or if they looked for another.
There was a relationship between God and those of faith in the Old Testament, but the primary difference between the Covenants was the perspective. David enjoyed relationship with God, yet even David would have to have his sin atoned for through the Blood of Christ. His transgressions are seen here:
King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
David was as secure, because of the grace of God, of Eternal Security as we are...from an eternal and retrospective perspective. But David asked something that we do not have to ask...
King James Version (KJV)
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
We understand by reason of New Testament revelation that the indwelling of God accomplished in salvation under New Covenant standard is eternal. We do not fear God casting us away, nor removing the earnest of our salvation.
It happened to King Saul.
And David's sin was perhaps more grievous than that of Saul, in that he murdered a man to cover his sin of adultery.
Yet David died at peace with God, evidencing his faith in God. That did not remove the consequences of his sin, and it did not remove the penalty for sin.
Only Christ could do that through His death.
When Christ gives the story of the rich man and Lazarus's final estate, He remarks that one is in torment and the other in "Abraham's bossom."
If there was not salvation in the sense of looking forward to the promise and that promise including Spiritual salvation, then what was the determining factor of the final residence? Works? Being poor?
If there was no understanding of "deliverance from sin" what then was the determiner?
In psalm 51:10 when David cries out "create in me a clean heart"
The hebrew word that he uses is bara which is the same word used in Genesis 1:1 when God created the heavens and the earth. Hence, David realized that only God can change the heart of man!!
While it is a highly debated topic, some take the view that what is in view is Sheol, or, Hades, rather than Heaven and Hell. When the Old Testament Saint died, they died in one of two states, believer, or unbeliever. Unbelievers went into torment in Hades, whereas believers went in what was called the Bosom of Abraham, as well as Paradise in Christ's Day. While this is traditional Jewish belief, we can say that the Lord uses the current designation for the place of the dead, rather than Sheol.
And when we look at Christ's teachings and Prophecy, we see that while Hades is sometimes translated "Hell," we see a distinct difference between Hades and gehenna. Hades describes the current resting place of the unjust (and in Luke 16 hades would have referred to both), which will be emptied out after the Millennial Kingdom. Some take the view that it was not until the Cross of Christ that men actually went to Heaven. Great teachers like John MacArthur take that view. I don't. What had to take place for men to be able to enter into His presence was Atonement, remission of sins, Reconciliation, and the new birth.
The Old Testament Saints were saved, but that does not mean they were Eternally redeemed. Until Christ came they were prevented from going into God's presence. Christ promised that He was going to prepare a place for them/us, that where He was, so should we be with Him. The determining factor for all believers of all Ages is obedience to the will of God. Abraham obeyed the will of God, which was possible through His faith in God's promises. Abel obeyed the will of God and brought acceptable sacrifice. Today, the will of God is that all men should believe on the name of Jesus Christ. Works follow faith, and have never saved the first Saint.
So the difference between looking forward to Redemption and looking back at Redemption is not really any different than looking forward to Christmas and looking back at it. It did not take place until it became a reality rather than promise and Prophecy. That does not deny the salvation of Christ, simply places them in a different era of revelation.
I understand your point that the Cross had to take place in time and space to complete the Redemption for OT believers, and I would agree.
There is a tenderness in the expression "Abraham's bosom" and "paradise"(which I take as the same place) that is lost in the word sheol and hades.
Then why did he use bara instead of asah? In the Bible, bara is used exclusively of God; man never bara's anything. Asah would have been a much more common word for him to have used in this situation
Of course he wasn't. God had already put away David's sin when He sent Nathan to him.
"The joy of the Lord is our strength". He was asking for deliverance from that awful place he found himself in after committing that horrendous deed. And God granted him repentance. But he lived with the temporal consequences of that sin for the rest of his days.
The point is that even as believers that is still takes the indwelling power of the Spirit to cleanse our hearts from sin
T Cassidy, would you like to point out what you think is dumb about this post?
Thanks in advance.
I didn't think you could, but thanks for confirming that. lol