Resurrection of the body?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, Oct 8, 2014.

  1. percho

    percho
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    Is the word soul always spoken of in the word of God as being either living, dead or in the state of Sheol or Hades, which is also the state of death?

    Being the Greek words for resurrection and body never appear in a verse of the
    word of God, yet the word for resurrection and soul does appear in one verse along with reference also to the flesh, I would like to ask.

    Can the soul exist in the state of death, Sheol and or Hades without a body?

    Can a soul exist in the state of living without a body?

    Does the living soul have to possess either an earthly house of tabernacle or a house from heaven not made with hands to exist as living?

    Is it not the soul that is resurrected from the dead, Sheol and or Hades and given a body pleasing to God?

    In what manner was the soul of the Christ not left in Hades. How was death the gates into Hades overcome?

    Was Jesus the soul not resurrected from Hades, in the flesh body in which he had died, which did not see corruption and would not return to corruption?
    Was Jesus raised from the dead no longer to have death lord over him?
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    You need to return to fundamentals. For example what is "death"? What is the cause of death? What is the opposite of death? Can a physical living human being be "dead" at the same time in some other sense than physical? Here is the source of your confusion.
     
  3. Van

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    Pointless questions rather than statments of biblical truth.

    The soul is part of our human spirit. Our spirit, though alive is said to be dead because it is separated from God by sin. Thus before salvation we are "dead = separated" but still alive = existing with will, emotion and intellect. The second death, is where our body and soul are destroyed in the lake of fire after being punished for the their sins.

    Being the Greek words for resurrection and body never appear in a verse. Yet scripture speaks of the redemption of our bodies.

    Of course our soul/spirit exists after the body dies, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, or consigned to Hades. See Luke 16, and the presentation of spiritual suffering.

    No, the resurrection unto death does not make the lost pleasing to God.

    No one knows exactly what happened to Christ's spirit after Jesus died physically on the cross. But He commended His Spirit unto God, and preached to "prisoners" in Hades, and incarnated His glorified body when He exited the tomb after three days. Perhaps He emptied Abraham's bosom and took them like captives to Paradise, the third heaven.
     
  4. percho

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    No. 1 example Adam. The moment Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they became dead in trespass and sin. What did that mean? It meant exactly what God had told the man Adam, before the woman was taken from him. Dying thou dost die. When spirit life departs from you 730 years from now, Adam, you, living soul, you will be dead.

    Adam the living soul was the figure of him to come, the Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus born of woman was just like Adam. Spirit life from God in his blood is what made his flesh soul with life. That is how the blood of the sinless Jesus could make atonement for the soul.

    Christ poured out his soul unto death when he shed his blood.

    The once living soul was then dead and it had a name, Jesus the Christ. The Christ was in Hades where he would not be left. The body of the Christ, hung on the cross about three hours and was then put in a borrowed tomb.

    When Jesus commended his spirit, his life, into the hands of the Father the soul of the flesh was no longer in his blood Lev. 17:11 Atonement for the soul had been made by his blood.

    Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

    Question. Hebrews 1:1-3 says God appointed Son heir of all things. I guess I can assume an heir is one who inherits something that once belonged to someone else. One doesn't appoint himself heir, I don't think.
    We are said to be joint heirs with Christ, the before mentioned Son. One is an heir until he inherits and then he becomes an inheritor, I guess that would apply to Jesus also.

    Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. 1 Peter 3:7

    Is that grace of life spoken of there something that the Son of Hebrews 1 was once an heir of? Are we also joint heirs with Christ of the grace of life?
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    That is not what God said to him. He said "IN THE DAY YE EAT" is when he would die, not 730 years from the day ye eat.

    Ephesians 2:1 illustrates the fact that one can be "dead" while still physically alive.

    You need to go back to the drawing board and study the fundamentals of death and what it means.
     
  6. percho

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    The day before he ate was he dead in trespass and sin?

    The day/moment he ate did he become dead in trespass and sin?

    Did God tell him dying he would die?

    As I know no Greek neither do I know any Hebrew, therefore I ask, how should the following be translated.

    מִמֶּנּוּ מֹות

    As I have said, I know no Hebrew. Is the concept of death and or dying used twice there or not? What does it mean? BTW I understand that is not the only occurrence of the usage in the word of God.


    What death came to the Christ in the flesh? Was it the death that was required which would take away the sin (singular) of the world? Christ died for our sins. What death was required for the payment for sin? Did the Christ die the death that was once assigned to man, the death God told Adam, he would, suffer?
     
    #6 percho, Oct 9, 2014
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  7. The Biblicist

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    Before we go around in this circle, first define death!
     
  8. percho

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    The opposite of life. What is life?

    For the wages of sin death; but the gift of God eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Would there be eternal life if Jesus had not been raised from the dead? Would there have been any kind of life after death came to X in the flesh, had Jesus not been raised from the dead?

    Three questions.

    Edited for one more. Is, "I Am that I Am," life? The living God, thirty times the exact phrase, the very opposite of a dead idol.
     
    #8 percho, Oct 9, 2014
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  9. The Biblicist

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    Death is being "alienated from the life of God" - Eph. 4:18

    Death is being "SEPARATED" from the life of God - Isa. 59:2

    The wages of sin is death and in all the ceremonial types of sin (diseased people) they were to be SEPARATED from Israel by being placed "OUTSIDE THE CAMP" (e.g. lepers, unclean, etc.)

    CONCLUSION: "Death" equals SEPARATION from God who is life.



    A PHYSICAL living person can be DEAD/SEPARATED/ALIENATED from God:

    "you who WERE DEAD in tresspasses and sins hath he quickened (made alive) - Eph. 2:1

    "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. " - 1 Tim. 5:6

    These people were still PHYSICALLY living but were separated/alienated from "the life of God." Those in Ephesians 2:1 were "quickened" even though they were NEVER physically dead. So what is quickened in a physically living person? The Bible says "what is born of Spirit is spirit" - Jn. 3:6.. Nicodemus was an OLD man but not a physically dead man and yet he is told that "ye" (plural) inclusive of mankind or "except A MAN" be born again (quickened, made alive) in regard to his "spirit" by the Holy Spirit he cannot enter or see the kingdom of God.

    CONCLUSION: The human "spirit" in a PHYSICALLY LIVING person can be "dead" and be "quickened". Meaning, the human spirit can be SEPARATED/ALIENATED from the life of God but the person still be PHYSICALLY ALIVE. Therefore PHYSICAL DEATH refers to the SEPARATION/ALIENATION of the spirit of man from the body of man. When the lost man is resurrected where the body is rejoined to the spirit or brought into UNION with his spirit and cast in to the lake of fire, which is the SECOND DEATH - he is forever SEPERATED/ALIENATED from God who is life forever.

    Therefore, death is SEPARATION/ALIENATION from God in spirit - spiritual death

    Therefore, death is SEPARATION/ALIENATION of the human spirit from the human body - phsyical death

    Therefore, death is SEPARATION/ALIENATION of the whole resurrected man (reunion between spirit and body) from God who is life in Gehenna - Second death

    LIKEWISE "life" is union.

    Eternal Spiritual life is UNION of the human spirit with God who is life by new birth
    Eternal physical life is UNION of the human spirit with the body with God by resurrection whereby the principle of indwelling sin (corruption) is permenantly removed.

    The resurrection of the lost man merely unites the still spiritual separated spirit from God with his body preserved in an eternal state of separation from God in Gehenna. Instead of taking 930 years to die physically as in the case of Adam, the resurrected lost man is dying eternally in Gehenna - or is being separated from God eternally in Gehenna.

    Thus life and death are not existence and cessation but two different modes of existence (separated or united with God).


    In the day Adam ate he died SPIRITUALLY or was alienated from the life of God in his spirit.

    Thus He died in spirit instantly - His spirit was instantly SEPARATED from God who is life. As a result of spiritual SEPARATION from God the principle of corruption began instantly in his body producing a "dying" condition that eventually 930 years later produced SEPARATION between his human spirit and physical body. Thus, instantly "in the day" he ate, he died in spirit instantly at the point of sin and it is sin that SEPARATED his spirit from God = spiritual death. That instanteous SEPARATION of his human spirit from God who is life, resulted in an ongoing PHYSICAL condition of "dying" or the principle of corruption at work which ultimately resulted in PHYSICAL separation from his human spirit which produced a DEAD body or a body SEPARATED from the immaterial aspect of the human nature. The physical body then continued the corruption process until it returned to dust. The immaterial nature of man (spiritual) returned to God who gave it. If that "spirit" was separated from the body while still separated from God due to sin, then it was SEPARATED from God in hades until the resurrection and Judgement. If the "spirit" had been reunited or had been brought back into UNION with God, then it entered into God's presence in heaven (Heb. 12:23) upon separation from the physical body.


    Death EQUALS separation
    Life EQUALS union
     
    #9 The Biblicist, Oct 10, 2014
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  10. percho

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    I know the sin of Adam separated him from God and our sins separates us from God. Without Christ we are dead, awaiting dying in the flesh. I also know even now those in Christ, quickened, are dead to the world; For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. In Christ we will die in the flesh, awaiting our life.
    We can now come before the throne of grace.



    A. Did Jesus the Christ die the death assigned to Adam for his sin? B. Did Jesus the Christ die for our sins?


    As to A. above if the answer be yes, can there be a time frame as to how long that death lasted?

    As to B. above if the answer be yes, can there be a time frame as to how long that death lasted?

    Did Jesus the Christ die, the death? What was that death? Could it be measured?

    Is 1 Cor 15:35 two questions or one question asked two different ways?
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    Christ is God in the Flesh who is eternal and embraces eternity. So he is OUTSIDE of time and inclusive of all time.

    Is 1 Cor 15:35 two questions or one question asked two different ways?[/QUOTE]

    It is two questions. First question is "how" the body is raised up. The second questions "what" is the nature of the body raised.
     
  12. percho

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    It is two questions. First question is "how" the body is raised up. The second questions "what" is the nature of the body raised.[/QUOTE]


    So the living soul Jesus must not have died for the sin of the world neither our sins and really there was no purpose for the resurrection spoken of here;

    “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. NKJV
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    So the living soul Jesus must not have died for the sin of the world neither our sins and really there was no purpose for the resurrection spoken of here;

    “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. NKJV[/QUOTE]

    I am saying that the reason that Christ could be a substitute in life and suffering for more than one other person is because He is "infinite" in his whole person and encompasses time, as he is eternal. Hence, what all finite humanity needs to suffer from the time they are cast into hell for eternal separation from God in spirit, soul and body, the infinite eternal Christ could pay for within a moment of time due to his infinite nature. Hence, length of time is not an issue because there is no length of time He does not encompass by His very infinite eternal nature.

    Second, David is speaking of Christ in the spirit of messianic prophecy rather than himself as David was not resurrected and Peter says that David "spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ" rather than of himself. Hades as the abode of the dead. It was the abode of the dead "soul" (lower sheol) as well as the abode of the dead "body" (upper sheol). The dead body of all beleivers went to "sheol" (upper sheol = the grave - 1 Cor. 15:57). Only the "souls" of the wicked went to lower sheol - hades). Jesus Christ when he physically died, they placed his "dead" body in the grave (upper sheol - the state of the dead body). However, in that state of death, his body did not "see corruption." His "soul" descended into lower sheol but was not left there but was reunited with his body on the third day in the resurrection.
     
  14. HankD

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    Actually its Moth HaMuth

    Literally (IMO) it says "dying you will die"

    Its the infinitive of "to die" or in a noun form "dying" followed by the imperfect (uncompleted action) verb form with the definite article - the Hebrew way of indicating future tense.

    Here is Young's Literal Translation:

    YLT Genesis 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

    It is somewhat idiomatic and there are differences of opinion as to the literal meaning.

    I've had 3 semesters of Hebrew so I am no expert although I continued to pursue the study after graduation.

    My take of the Hebrew is that they were immediately separated from God spiritually but BEGAN to die physically in "the day" that they ate.

    HankD
     
  15. percho

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    I am saying that the reason that Christ could be a substitute in life and suffering for more than one other person is because He is "infinite" in his whole person and encompasses time, as he is eternal. Hence, what all finite humanity needs to suffer from the time they are cast into hell for eternal separation from God in spirit, soul and body, the infinite eternal Christ could pay for within a moment of time due to his infinite nature. Hence, length of time is not an issue because there is no length of time He does not encompass by His very infinite eternal nature.

    Second, David is speaking of Christ in the spirit of messianic prophecy rather than himself as David was not resurrected and Peter says that David "spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ" rather than of himself. Hades as the abode of the dead. It was the abode of the dead "soul" (lower sheol) as well as the abode of the dead "body" (upper sheol). The dead body of all beleivers went to "sheol" (upper sheol = the grave - 1 Cor. 15:57). Only the "souls" of the wicked went to lower sheol - hades). Jesus Christ when he physically died, they placed his "dead" body in the grave (upper sheol - the state of the dead body). However, in that state of death, his body did not "see corruption." His "soul" descended into lower sheol but was not left there but was reunited with his body on the third day in the resurrection.[/QUOTE]


    Do you not realize that that it the very exact opposite of what Hebrews 2:14,16 states.

    Why did God create Adam in his, God's image, take the woman from the man who had been created is his, God's image, yet create him subject to the death of which Satan the devil had the power thereof?

    Why did the God do that? What purpose was God going to accomplish?


    But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
    He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    Is the following the reason God Created Adam as he did?

    But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


    Did it require a woman taken from a man created in the image of the creator for that to happen?

    That one gave his life for our sins. He was no longer alive and no longer was connected to God his Father. His very life, he commended (put) into the hands of the Father. He was dead, separated from his, Father and his God.

    Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
    Who by him (Jesus the Son) do believe in God, (the Father) that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    How so? I see no contradiction in the least.
     
  17. percho

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    Was it the plan of God that his Son, the sinless Son of God, would be paid the wages of sin (singular) that the man Adam and for the sins (plural) Adam's sons would commit and would thus reconcile the world unto himself?

    Was that the plan of the God?

    Exactly who would the God appoint as heir of all things? Will there be joint heirs with Jesus of Nazareth, the heir of all things? Is eternal life, eternal salvation, one of the all things that Jesus was heir thereof of which there are joint heirs?

    You know the scriptures, Sir, therefore I will not post them.

    What is the answer to all those questions? Yes.

    If One could not meet those requirements because of One's, Oneness then there could not be any salvation for the ones created in the image of God.

    Maybe the God had, one born of woman taken from one created in the image of the God.

    Ehyeh asher ehyeh literally translates as "I Will Be What I Will Be",

    Maybe that was fulfilled in his Son/son born of woman.

    γὰρ ἐν αὐτῇ γεννηθὲν, ἐκ Πνεύματός ἐστιν ἁγίου

    I know, no Greek; You translate and I will ask, did that take place just as God stated? What took place within the womb of the virgin? Anything?
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    Are you saying that if Christ's divinity had anything to do with accomplishing eternal redemption of His people then he would not be a suitable sacrifice for fallen man simply because He was MORE than a mere man??? Are you suggesting that ONLY a human divested of any other nature could be a possible redeemer of fellow mankind? Are you saying that the human nature of Christ was sufficient in and of itself to redeem fallen man from an eternal penalty and suffice God's justice against billions of human beings? Are you saying that the divine INFINITE nature of Christ had no part to do with providing an INFINITE value in the sacrifice of the human Christ for the sins of many?
     
  19. percho

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    I am saying that the divine infinite God brought forth through the virgin woman, his divine Son. Jesus of Nazareth. That Son never sinned yet gave his life for our sins and for the sin of the world. It was the Son of the God that had the promise of the God, the hope of eternal life.
    The Father raised the Son from the dead giving him eternal life and that Son became the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, The Faith of God.

    I am tired of copying and pasting the word of God for no one reads it anyway, yet I will one more time.

    Jesus was the prophet God told Moses he would send like unto him.

    Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; )Gal 1:1

    You can quote all the other scriptures you want to but when it comes down to where the rubber meets the road God the Father of Jesus of Nazareth raised is Son Jesus born of woman from the dead.

    The prophet Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of the living God said; John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth. God by his Spirit quickened the Son, 1 Peter 3:18 Romans 8:11. The prophet again states John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; When? Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Hebrews 1:2 says God, who ever that is, appointed Son, whoever that is, heir of all things. Verse 4 says that Son by inheritance obtained a name more excellent than the angels. When does the word of God state the Son Jesus obtained that name? When did he inherit that name? I will let you answer. Why did the God the Father give that name to the Son, Jesus? A name above all names. Why? You know where to look so I will let you answer.

    Did God the Father glorify the Son of God to be high priest or did God the Son glorify himself to be high priest? I'm asking you. What should I believe?
     
    #19 percho, Oct 13, 2014
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  20. The Biblicist

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    Not a single word that I have said contradicts anything you are saying here!

    Not a single word that I have said contradicts anything you are saying here!



    Not a single word I said contradicts anything you have said here.

    Now, we might come to some real difference! What do you mean by "born of woman FROM THE DEAD"? Are you using the phrase "from the dead" to describe Mary or to describe the condition of Christ's body in the grave????

    No disagreement here!


    Why he gave it to Christ when he came into the world (Mt. 1:21). However, I fail to see any logic or connection you are making with His name and his inheritance? When God gives a name to anyone it always refers either to a promise in regard to them or a description of their character. In this case it is both. In regard to promise the Father gave the Son a people to redeem "his people" (Mt. 1:21). In regard to his character he was born "immanuel" or "THE God with us" (literal trans). Hence, his name was greater than angels in that he was not a creature like the angels but God in the flesh. Moreover, as the sinless God/man he was the rightful heir as Paul points out in Colossians 1:15-22. His nature as God made him the rightful heir of all creation since he created it and owns it by creative right. In addition, as the sinless man he is the rightful heir by promise of the Father due to his representative capacity for "his people" (Mt. 1:21).

    I fail to see your point! Of course, the answer is both. God the Father appointed the Son as our Great High Preist who offered up Himself for our sins. However, the Son did glorify Himself by making that offering, as it is no sin for God to glorify himself and the Son is God. Both are equally true! He had power to lay his life down and to take it up again.
     
    #20 The Biblicist, Oct 14, 2014
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