Resurrection!/Rapture?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by tyndale1946, Nov 23, 2015.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    I firmly believe in a resurrection from the dead... Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead as the holy word of God teaches... Job also believed in a resurrection from the dead and according as see it a bodily resurrection. I am very well aware some on here don't believe in a bodily resurrection but that is another post... To me resurrection and rapture are the same thing and I see no difference, but the word resurrection is in scripture but rapture is not, so I go with resurrection... So this is the question, what is the difference between the resurrection and the rapture?... Does the following verses from Thessalonians teach a resurrection, a rapture or both?... As always your comment are greatly appreciated!... Brother Glen

    I Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
     
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  2. percho

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    I believe the dead are resurrected, those alive are changed and together they are raptured and or caught up to meet the Lord in the air and return to earth. Inclusive of the two witness in Rev 11 at the time of the last trump, the seventh trumpet.
     
  3. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    From that scenario the resurrected from that thought are also raptured, seeing they also meet the Lord in the air... Brother Glen
     
  4. percho

    percho
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    ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα
    together with them shall be caught up

    Doesn't look like you can be raptuured unless you are first made alive, does it?

    However as I have said in the past, I know, no Greek, so I could be wrong.
     
  5. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    I know no Greek either but I find that the definition of that word caught up is also used 4 times in the NT... Acts 8:39 Philip was caught away in the Spirit after baptizing the eunuch... 2 Corinthians 12:2 & 4 How Paul was caught up into the third heaven and paradise... The OP reference from I Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up... And the last from Revelation 12:5 The man child that was caught up unto God and to his throne... Resurrection as far as I can see is a raising up or rising up, again according to scripture and as Apostle Paul states in I Corinthians 15:51-52 It will all happen in a moment in the twinkling of an eye... Will the resurrection and carrying away happen simutainously... Don't know!... But I will know when whatever happens, happens... Then we will all know!... How God arranged it!... Brother Glen
     
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  6. percho

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    I agree. We shall know. I also think as far as we are concerned it will all take place simultaneously, in a moment in the twinkling of an eye.
     
  7. agedman

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    Not at all the same scene as presented in the second coming account, is it.
     
  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    I Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    According to this verse it says God loves to surprise his children... I don't know about you but "I LOVE" a surprise... Brother Glen
     
    #8 tyndale1946, Nov 25, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
  9. OldRegular

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    The passage you cite from Thessalonians is simply a description of the resurrectionof the believer at the return of Jesus Christ. The cincept of a pre-trib removal of a "parenthewsis Church is simple nonsense out of the minds of people like Scofield and the invisible John Nelson Darby, whom no one knows or has heard about!
     
    #9 OldRegular, Nov 27, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2015
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  10. percho

    percho
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    I agree.

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
    And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    All the same trumpet.

    I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
     
  11. DHK

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    1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 επειτα ημεις οι ζωντες οι περιλειπομενοι αμα συν αυτοις αρπαγησομεθα εν νεφελαις εις απαντησιν του κυριου εις αερα και ουτως παντοτε συν κυριω εσομεθα

    Strong's
    αρπαζω harpazo har-pad'-zo
    from a derivative of 138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

    17deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

    rapiemur is the Latin word for "caught up". It is also where we get our English word rapture.

    Here is some good information:
    https://www.khouse.org/articles/2002/444/print/
     
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  12. kyredneck

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    Ditto. 1 Cor 15 cinches it for me.
     
  13. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    DHK!!!... I have a question... According to I Thessalonians 4:17 Don't those caught up to meet the Lord in the air have to be in a resurrected body?... If they do can't one say they are resurrected before they are raptured?... Brother Glen
     
  14. DHK

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    They take place at the same time my friend--in "the twinkling of an eye."

    1Cor15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
     
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  15. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    You know DHK this is the first time you and I agreed on anything... Brother Glen
     
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  16. OldRegular

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    You left out the best part DHK:

    1 Corinthians 15:53-58
    53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

    56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

    57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmu
    ch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

    No more death after the resurrection.
     
    #16 OldRegular, Dec 1, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2015
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  17. DHK

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    That is true. It is true for those who believe we are resurrected at the rapture or at some other time.
    No matter when the rapture takes place the believer receives a new body, and thus he will never meet death again. As for the unbeliever, once thrown into the Lake of Fire he lives in a state of continual death--continually separated from God for all eternity. That refutes annihilation completely.
     
  18. prophet

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    Rapture is an abstract noun, and not concrete.
    It cannot then be used as a description of an event.
    It can only be used to express the emotional state of the enraptured person.

    Now, because of Darby, Scofield, Torrey, the Southern Baptists of the the mid 20th Century, and so on...widespread use of "rapture" to detail an imaginary event , has caused the coined term to be put into modern dictionaries.

    A little research will turn up that no place in English literature, outside of direct references to the aforementioned imaginary event, will you find "rapture" used as a concrete noun.

    For those of you with a minimal education level:
    A noun is a person, place, thing, or idea.
    "Rapture" is an idea.

    Resurrection is an event, a concrete tangible process.
    We will rise, in the First Resurrection, if we are His own.
    From Adam to the last martyr in the Son of Perdition's short-lived kingdom, we will rise together, at the last trump.
    Matthew 24:29 "..after the Tribulation of those days...".

    Earnestly Contend
     
  19. DHK

    DHK
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    Why would you say that. It has nothing to do with emotions, just as the resurrection has nothing to do with emotions. The rapture is the first resurrection or the resurrection of believers. It is when we receive our resurrected bodies. We shall be like him for we shall see him as him as he his. This is more than emotional.

    The rapture was believed as an event long before these men. All these men did was put it before the tribulation. The ECF believed in a rapture. It may not have always been pre-tribulational but it was a rapture. They were Chiliasts or Millennialists.

    It is as concrete as any other noun, as I have demonstrated in post #11. It is only imaginary in your mind, only because you refuse to accept the Biblical evidence for it. But your opinions don't deny the event thereof. If you deny that red is a color because you are color blind, red still exists whether you say it does or not. You just cannot be helped because of your denial. The event is still concrete and not imaginary nor abstract.

    Only in your mind. It is an event. An event falls under the category of a noun, just as the word "Pentecost" is a noun. The "rapture" is as much an event as Pentecost was.

    The rapture and the resurrection of believers are the same thing, and thus an event.
     
  20. prophet

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    You read my post with your eyes half closed.

    When I put "rapture" in quotes, I am referring to the word: "rapture".

    The word: "rapture", in ENGLISH, is an abstract noun, and cannot be used to describe an event.
    The educated people in the World are laughing at us...

    Earnestly Contend
     

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