Resurrection Saints and Wicked

Yes - given the Matt 24 sequence of a post-trib pre-mill rapture (gathering of the saints "AFTER the tribulation of those days")

in Christ,

Bob

 

Looks like the same topic to me -- what did I miss?

 

Bob said --

Bob said
"And of course AFTER that FIRST resurrection - there is a literal 1000 years according to Rev 20."

Are up saying that you agree with GE that the first resurrection happens AFTER the Millennium OR are you saying that in John's future there were a large number of "FIRST" resurrections before the millennium??

One thing is clear - according to John there is exactly 1000 years between the first resurrection and the 2nd. So pick whatever resurrection you want that was future to John -- then count 1000 years.

in Christ,

Bob

 

We see the saints "COME TO LIFE" BEFORE the 1000 years and John CALLS that coming to life -- "the FIRST resurrection"

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to lifeand reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.[/b]
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,

GE - Your "wild spin" on vs 5 makes it appear that John is calling the SECOND "coming to life" the "FIRST resurrection" -- what a huge clue this must be for you that your view is clearly wrong.

(No need to thank me in pointing that out for you. It is also just part of the service I am doing here for others)

Well - we differ "CAME to life" is what resurrection IS!

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.[/b]

GE - Using Your "wild spin" in vs 4 with vs 5 it makes it appear that John is calling the SECOND "coming to life" the "FIRST resurrection" -- what a huge clue this must be for you that your view is clearly wrong.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Look at the time when the statements are true:

SCD = day of the Second Coming of Jesus:

SCD ------------- They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
SCD + 1,000 -- 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
SCD -------------- This is the first resurrection.
right now ------- 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection.

This is equating
the first resurrection = when 'they came to life & reigned' etc.

IMHO there are two parts to the first resurrection:

1. The pretribulation rapture/resurrection
beginning of the 'week' - Daniel's 70th week
beginning of the 'Tribulation Period'
beginning of the 'Day of Christ'

2. The post-tribulation rapture/resurrection
end of the 'week' - Daniel's 70th week
end of the 'Tribulation Period'
end of the 'Day of Christ'

 

Ed -

By your own post - your view "needs" THREE "first resurrections" -- with Rev 20 being the "THIRD resurrection" before the 1000 years -- future to John.

I get that part.

It also needs Christ's statement of John 14 "I WILL come again and RECEIVE you" to be at least THREE events not ONE.

AND it needs some other sequence for our gathering together to Christ OTHER than "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days" Matt 24.

In almost every area -- your view needs "a change" to the text.

This means you do not derive your view FROM the texts - you seek to find away to state the texts such that they fit your view.

The question is -- have you succeeded?

in Christ,

Bob

 

That bit about Daniel's 70th week has also got to be a huge indicator for you that your model is seriously flawed.

1. NO timeline prophecy in ALL of scripture works if you slice and dice it into discontiguous bits with unknown gaps of time inserted into the timeline.

Hint: Try doing that with Jeremiah's 70 years that START Dan chapter 9 instead of just trying that trick with the 70th week of Dan 9.

Hint 2: Try that trick with the first 483 years of Daniels 490 year prophetic timeline. Slicing it up into discontiguous bits and pieces separated by undefined/unknown gaps of time does not work there either.

2. Everyone admits that Dan 9 gives the greatest messianic prophecy in the OT - AND we all see clearly that IF you leave that 490 timeline in tact - as one timeline IT COVERS the work of Christ as the Messiah. But if you SLICE it up then it exactly MISSES the work of the Messiah.

Again - a huge indicator that your model is flawed as it takes an abnormal approach to a TIMELINE and it explicitly SKIPS the work of the Messiah when in fact we ALL agree it is THE great Messianic timeine prophecy of the OT!

I gotta say Ed - this has to be a pretty big indicator for you

Surely you readily admit that ALL the timelines in Dan are contiguous - 1260 days, 2300 days, 70 years of Jeremiah and yes even the 490 years of Dan 9. You must also admit that leaving timelines "in tact" is normative for all Bible timelines.

Basically that leaves you with only one conclusion - you have sliced Dan 9 because of an apriori bias you bring to the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

//In almost every area -- your view needs "a change" to the text.//

I disagree.
The text is the same.
I have no authority to change the text.
God has given me a better understanding of
what the text means. Again, all my development
of the text is given by the Holy Spirit.
(I won't argue who the 24-elders are, I don't know,
I haven't been shown).
But what I've been shown I gladly share.

The scripture is NOT changed by me.
My view was changed by the Holy Spirit to
His understanding shown to me.

//1. NO timeline prophecy in ALL of scripture works if you slice
and dice it into discontiguous bits with unknown
gaps of time inserted into the timeline.//

Do you understand that Daniel sliced the 70 weeks apart?
7 weeks first
followed by 62 weeks
followed by 1 week
dividing of the 70th week into half:
( 2 parts)
1260 days = 40 months = half a week (7 years) =
3½-years (time /1/, times /2/, and half a time /½/)

Here is the gap between the first 69 weeks
and the 70th week of Daniel:
Rom 11:25 (KJV1611 Edition):

For I would not, brethren, that ye should
bee ignorant of this mysterie
(least yee should bee wise in your owne conceits)
that blindnesse in part is happened to Israel,
vntill the fulnes of the Gentiles be come in.

So I interpret scripture with scripture and don't
throw in extra stuff.

BTW, I'm insulated. For I see a bias of
the New Age Movement in your logic.
It is politically correct (PC) to say "it is alright
to search for the truth" but if you find
the truth* one will immediately be labeled
'a bigot'. How long do I need to search
for the truth? How long before my preconcieved
notions become the truth?
Sorry, I have been working on the project
55 years. If the number (how long? )is under 55, I already
have the right to STICK WITH MY CONVICTIONS.

*The Truth is a person: Jesus,
not some cool idea or doctrine.

Someday I'll have to share how I start with other
doctrines and proceed to the truth of the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection. But it is
so much more fun to steal other's topics :saint:

 

IMHO, the 'First Resurrection' is the Resurrection of the
Just - it starts with Jesus who was the protype Resurrection
(upon which all the others hinge). Recall that the only way
we can say 'I am just' is through & by Messiah Yeshua
(Christ Jesus) -- so there is no braging rights about Ed here.
So the 'First Resurrection' lasts about 2,000 years, might
be a lot longer, if the Lord taries. What is the quibble about
seven years?

 

// ... do you believe that I believe that 'The First Resurrection'
is 'The Thousand Years' now already 2000 years plus going?//

No.

I think you beleive that 'The First Resurrection'
is 'The Thousand Years' some time in our future.

I wonder? is your first language
Afrikaans or Zulu? As always, do not say anything
you do not want to say.

 

Hint: quote the part I am RESPONDING to to SEE that my response is directed to what was POSTED instead of going on your non-stop "All the world problems are Bob Ryan's fault" tirade again.

I was responding to ED bringing in the 70 weeks of Daniel as you well know -- your proclivity for changing the "details" is awesome.

As I said - very poster on this board agrees with that part.

Since you have just admitted that you struggle with the English language I will not take that comment as the wild twist-and-spin that it "appears to be".

1. I never said that DIFERENT timeline prophecies were contiguous to EACH OTHER as you have mangled it above.

NEITHER did Adventism EVER say that the 2300 years of Dan 8 and the 1260 years of Dan 7 and the 490 years of Dan 9 were contiguous to EACH other.

Surely this mangling on your part is simply an honest mistake with the english language.

2. The ACTUAL point I made was that a SINGLE timeline prophecy HAS to be a contiguous timeline as we see with Jeremiahs 70 years for EXAMPLE. So no slicing up that ONE timeline into desparate segments separated by undefined lengths of time!

A very simple point - obvious and yet somehow it escapes you GE. Why is that? Even in your response you duck-and-dodge the simple point made - "re-inventing" it into some wild mythical "different timelines are contiguous" nonsense. My conclusion is that you deliberately intend to do this even though it is clearly innaccurate.

in Christ,

Bob