Rethinking Homosexuality

You can argue all day long about how to "interprete" the bible but that will go nowhere unless you are a born again Christian, enlightened by the Holy Spirit. As 1 cor 2:14 says, the things of God are spiritually discerned. In fact, you won't understand 1 cor 2:14 if you are not born again. Impossible!!!

I am amused at all the "liberal" and "moderate" opinions about God's word. I've heard it all. There are even courses in "seminaries" that teach "critical" biblical studies. I'm sure God gets a good laugh out of that one.

Before God regenerated me, I read the bible a dozen times and thought I understood it. Then, by a Sovereign act of God's grace, I was regenerated, justified by faith, which was a free gift so no one can boast, and then re-read the bible. What a difference!!! To truly, spiritually discern something is so totally different than to sit around and argue about where Cain's wife came from.

You either get it or you don't. If you have not been regenerated, you can study the bible for 50 years and end up the same way as those lunatics from the Jesus Seminar.

As for homosexuality the bible condemns it as a gross sin, and completely depraved. As far as that goes, so does common sense.

I know you think I am a fundamentalist, bible-thumping, fanatic, Jesus-freak, and you are correct. I can only thank you for that. But when God regenerates you, gives you a new mind, shows you the truth of the gospel and the insanity of sin, shows you how to spiritually discern His word, justifies you by faith, helps you grow in understanding, gives you eternal life, you can only feel sorry for all those lost souls out there that are still arguing about whether Adam and Eve existed, if there was a flood, if God parted the Red Sea, etc. Being REGENERATED, by the free gift and sovereignity of God, you KNOW what is true. Like the Bible says, if you KNOW the truth, the truth will set you FREE. Of course, that is spiritually discerned, and no amount of human "reasoning" or arguing will change that.
James2

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>They interpret it as if they were living 2,000 years ago.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bad statement.

Is adultery still sin? If yes, then it's just as much a sin now as it was 2,000 years ago. If not, well, don't say no one warned ya....

Is murder still a sin? If yes, then it's just as much a sin now as it was 2,000 years ago. If not, well then, what is it? A man-made edict that it's "not a nice thing to do"?

Stealing? Fornicating? Bearing false witness? If these are no longer sins, then why/when/how did they become "let's all make nicey-nice with each other" guidelines?

I firmly believe the principles and Spirit of the Bible are absolutely timeless. If the Bible is nothing more than a "living" document, to be changed to conform to social whims whenever it makes someone uncomfortable, then it is a useless document, and not God-breathed. The very fact that it has survived for much longer than 2,000 years attests to its timelessness.

Please re-consider your position.

 

re: Your last post.

Hmmm...er...interesting...analysis.

Considering that the man in the first passage was working to provide for himself; and Jesus, in the second passage, was "working" for the benefit of another. The example Jesus gave (leading an animal out to graze) also had nothing to do with working to benefit one's self; either you take care of your animals, as a good steward should, or watch them die. Same with those that the religious leaders were stewards over.

 

paynedaniel:
It is convenient, and correct. I will answer your post when I get home from work tonight. 12:30a.m. (MST).
One brief comment. God does not change. How he deals with people at different times change. Your old testament scripture is dealing with people under the Mosiac covenant, the only one of the coventants that were conditional. Luke deals with people under the new covenant, or the Church Age, or the covenant of grace, whatever you want to refer to it.

It's not what I think, but what the Inspired writers of the Scriptures state. 1 Cor. 2:14 is very clear. There is a big difference between a regenerated person and one who is not. One is spiritually alive and one is spiritually dead and CANNOT understand the things of God. Argue with Paul. I only speak for myself and do not try to classify people in one group or the other. I leave that up to them to decided for themselves.
I suppose you think that Jesus contradicted the Inspired writers of the Old Testament!! If you do, then there is really something wrong with your understanding of the scriptures.
James2

 

Boy, this subject has gone around the block a couple of times already on different threads! I remember reading them last year - and not once, twice, but several times.

Aren't you people have enough of this blasphemy? The Bible calls homosexuality a sin! But practicing homosexuals do not want to accept that and therefore they rebell against the Bible. They even want to downplay the words of God by saying that the general interpretation is wrong! Then they present their interpretation, and thereby question the integrity of those who do not agree with them.

Folks, there is no two ways about it. The Bible is plain. If you do not accept God's words, that will not change the facts. The facts are these, if a practicing homosexual does not repent of his sin and turns to the Lord he will perish. Christians can and need to reach out to homosexuals for this reason only, to draw them to the Lord. Anyone who loves or sympathizes with an unrepentent homosexual person is partaker of his sin. Plain and simple.

 

I would like to answer your question and I don't think it is a pat answer unless you believe thus saith the Lord gives pat answers. What is so complicated about the issue, the Bible clearly teaches that homosexulity is wrong and that those that practice such are not right with God and will be given over to a reprobate mind. It seems to me the problem is not Baptist avoiding the question of homosexuality, the problem lies with those that do not heed to the word of God as the final authority on such issues. You can call that a pat answer but I can not attempt to present the truth to someone who rejects what the Word of God has to say about homosexuality. I also think you are off base if you believe unity is of the most importance. God did not want Paul to be in unity with unbelievers or those that opposed God, he called Paul to rise above the world standards and proclaim His truth. In fact God tells us to separate ourselves from those who will not abide by his word, not unify ourselves with them, even if they call themselves Christian or even are Christians out of fellowship with God.

 

Daniel wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I do not think it is inerrant, because it is a man-written book. It is a guide to faith, not a flawless map or dictate<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As I said at the beginning of this thread, the issue of homosexuality is just a symptom of a larger hermeneutical problem. I believe the Bible is innerant. You do not. I believe the Bible is God's Revelation. You believe it is simply man's thoughts. The Bible says, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." You obviously do not believe this. You are not a theological moderate, you are a theological liberal. With this position of yours as a foundation, you will be subject to all sorts of theological errors. You have no way distinguish between what may be God's wishes, and what might be the folly of a human writer. The analogy of the Jesus Seminar is a good one. In all their "wisdom" these "scholars" determined that Jesus actually did "Go up to Jerusalem" a few times, and that is about it.

 

It is interesting to me that people want to talk about homosexuality and Rom 1 without dealing with the text. Paul uses some very clear words. He talks of what is "natural," meaning that which is in accord with nature. He specifically says that both men and women left the natural use of the other to do that which is unnatural. Biology, if not revelation, has made it clear that there is a natural and an unnatural way. Furthermore, in Rom 1, the unnatural is said to be the judgment of God.

There are those here who want to say that we are talking about monogamous, committed relationships where Paul was talking about open, promiscuous ones. I ask, Where did you get this? It did not come from the text. In fact, Paul does not discuss promiscuity vs. commitment. He discusses "natural" vs. "unnatural."

The clever explanations of the text do not start with the words and reach a conclusion. They start with the conclusion and head for the text, demanding that the text support them.

I tried to get Joshua to deal with this a long time ago and he simply blew it off. I expect nothing different now. The text is clear; it is the reinterpretation of the text that brings problems.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by paynedaniel:
...I am saying that Jesus is our guide - not Scripture. Putting anything above Jesus (including Scripture) is dangerous business.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Daniel, I would be interested in your explaining how, in a practical and daily life sort of way, that Jesus is your guide? This may be getting off topic, but I think that part of the difference in the moderate and conservative approach to homosexuality is in their approach to scripture.

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

No where in the Word of God will you find that God's message to us changes. In fact the Bible says he is the same yesterday, today and forever. Psalms tells us to walk in the old paths. I think Jeremiah 6:16 is a clear picture of what is happening in churches today. "Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein. What is wrong with Christians who cannot accept the word of God as it is written and constantly have to make excuses for sin. How can we have fellowship with God unless it be in truth. That is the only fellowship there is. It is interesting that he says rest for your souls. I never found rest for my soul until I came to the realization that God's word is perfect and I can only accept it and conform my life to it. I will never have rest or peace in my life if I consistently try to compromise or undermine the Word of God.

 

If it is naive to embrace by faith the statement, "The Bible says so," then I plead guilty along with millions throughout church history who have come to Christ.

I heard about a great theologian when asked what the greatest truth he ever pondered was said, "Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so."

I only wish Daniel that this truth would be applied to you, but for you, it would be too naive.

Daniel, you have not yet in three pages on this thread interacted with any of the verses that clearly condemn homosexuality. But again, your real underlying difficulty is the authority of Scripture. A "guide" as you call it, is suggestions, not absolute truth. You have no theological moorings on which to pin your faith.

Chick

 

Hi, new guy here.
When you go to the OT and start bringing out different laws and try to apply them to Christianity you make a mistake, for we are not under law but under grace. The law showed us we can not keep it. Therefore, applying eating shrimp to us today as well as other laws is ignorant. Neither can one say that Christ changed the law, for He did not; He fulfilled the law. In doing so it was taken and nailed to the cross with Him and done away with.(Read Colosians) Paul explains all this, and you must realize he doesn't bring any law into his preaching. What he does preach is the law of love, which by the way is the only law Christ has given us besides believe in Him. We are to love our brother as ourself, and by doing so, we will not hurt others by committing adultry, stealing, bearing false witness ect. Though we see love of others here, do not forget the love of self in a Christ which is nessecary and honorable. These sins not only bring hurt to others , but also to yourself, and is just as wrong as hurting others. This includes homosexuality. Homosexual acts dishonor the body of all participants, and a believer, being a temple of God, is disgracing his temple by this or any act that has no love in it. Love is natural and Godly, hate is not. Sex between a man and woman is natural and marital sex is Godly; homosexual sex is neither natural nor Godly. If it were so, even the animal kingdom would have its homosexuals, which they don't. Yes, you may see a dog or young bull humping on another male as they are coming of sexual maturity or even because there is no female present, but you will NEVER find an animal that will choose homosexuality over natural sex. Realize too that what ever you do, as a believer with the Holy Spirit living in you, you are dragging God into it. Now, if a person is not of Christ it does not matter what they do. Only the Christian is going to be concerned with doing what Christ wants, and God is only going work with the believer to change. Which brings me to this question: Can a homosexual be saved? Absolutely. Does he have to change? Not to be saved. As someone quoted before where Paul told the Corinthians that at one time so some of them had been some of those bad things, he went on to say what? Now they were sanctified and justified in Jesus Christ. Not in themselves, in Jesus Christ. Even if they don't do any more sin, they can still never be justified of themselves. The reason I say all this is for this reason: God will save any man or woman regardless of what they have done, that includes homosexuality. Once a person is saved,it is the Holy Spirit that will deal with that person to make them change, and a true believer will be guided by what He understands of the scripture to do that. SO if a person being a homosexual claims to be saved and understands homosexuality is a sin even though he or she struggles with it, I believe them to be saved. If they struggle with it, they should be able to ask of fellow believers in love and out of love we need to help them and pray for them as we would with any other sin a brother or sister has trouble with. But if he or she tries to justify the act of homosexuality and lables it as being not a sin, then I say they are not saved, and the truth is not in them. That is not just for homosexuality alone, but also if one tries to justify murder, adultry, stealing, or any other act that is not of love in Christ.

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Jaco ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by paynedaniel:
... the naive phrase "The Bible says so."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If we should not base our faith on the "Bible says so" then on what do we base it? You claimed an offense when you thought someone was questioning your salvation but how do you know that you are saved except "the Bible says so?" If you only hold sure, true, and sacred those things which you feel to be so then how do you differentiate between you as god and saviour and Christ as God and Saviour? Christ said that we should obey HIS commands. Is it in His character to demand this then not leave a record of those commands?

Fundamentalists believe that the Bible is the revelation of God to man, divinely inspired and preserved...not only because scripture promises it or history confirms it but because it is consistent with the character of God. It is completely against the character of God to establish a system that legitimizes each of us doing that which is right in our own eyes.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You would think we would learn from the history of the use of that phrase. 150 years ago, the Bible said slavery was ok too. What happened? Did the Bible change? No - our interpretations of Scripture just got a little better.

Daniel<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Our interpretations" is quite a bit too broad for the reality of the history of slavery. An honest treatment of history will find that opposition from Bible believing Christians existed from the very start.

...by the way, God did not call being black a sin. He did however declare all sex outside of marriage to be sin. This declaration applies to all homosexual acts since there is no biblical provision for same sex marriage.

 

paynedaniel:
I was going to add some further comments on your post, but by the time I got home from work several other people have already posted some very excellent responses, so there is not much to add.

Homosexuality is condemned by the bible, by common sense, by nature, and by every religion in the history of the world.

Why anyone would want to defend a sick, depraved, disgusting, preverted, unnatural, sinful, gross, immature, mentally unstable way of living is beyond me. You can defend that depravity if you want to, but the bible most certainly does not.

Anyone who wants to say the bible does not condemn this sick behavior is one who wants to tell God what to do, not to listen to the Word of God and His wisdom.

I've never understood, generally speaking now, people who spend their time in "critical" bible study classes, who try to pick the bible apart like the lost people started doing during the "enlightment" people like the Jesus Seminar, etc. All that does is show how lost these people really are. Once again, 1 cor. 2:14 is very clear. If you have to spend your life searching for Cain's wife, or denying that Adam and Eve existed, etc, then you need to junk the bible and let secular humanism or some other type of worldly, sinful, depraved philosophy be your guide.

What is really needed today is for people to read (along with the Bible of course),a few books on the attributes of God. I think people this day and age are taught that God is some old man, grandfather type of God who sits in a park feeding the birds and loving everybody. Just come as you are, don't change your ways because your truth is your truth and no one is right or wrong blah, blah, blah. Well, God is not like that!!! He is the thrice Holy God who is not only love, but demands justice. It won't be much longer now and He will be evicting the squatters from the "hotel." He will be reclaiming this earth from all the rebels and then you (plural) can stand before the infinite, Holy God, and explain how homosexuality, instead of being a sick, preverted "lifestyle" is ok because fallen, depraved men say it is. I'm sure God will feel like "debating" the issue with you. Man, oh man are people in for a real surprise!!!!!!!
James2

 

On the concept of Jesus as our criterion for biblical interpretation, we discussed this a little here. Unsurprisingly, this came up the last time this issue came around. I'll bump it if you folks want to rehash that as a spearate issue.

Joshua

 

Originally posted by paynedaniel <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> ...I am saying that Jesus is our guide - not Scripture. Putting anything above Jesus (including Scripture) is dangerous business.

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<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When Jesus walked this earth He was subjecte to the Word of God as evidenced by his response to Satan during His temptaion in the wilderness.

Also Psalm 138:2 says "thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." Therefore since God has magnified His word above His name, I believe it is proper for us to do so as well.