Rev. 22:18,19 question

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by PowerndBlood, Oct 5, 2004.

  1. PowerndBlood

    PowerndBlood
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2004
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    0
    I truly believe that if a person is born again that they are saved forever and have settled that in my heart and can in my opinion rightly divide other verses that people think teach that you can loose your savation, BUT i have never had anyone to answer these two verses for me in a way that felt right and i have asked more than a few people.

    Re:22:18: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

    Re:22:19: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


    Could this be the one thing that God said do not do or else, just as Adam and Eve only had one thing not to do.?

    It has to be a saved person in order to have a part in the book of life and the Holy City to loose, right?

    I can not find one time were God took eternal life away from a born again believer in the body of Christ, i know that he killed Ananias and Sapphira but it doesn't say anything about their souls going to hell.

    Thanks in advance for any thoughts or opinions,
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good morning.

    Rev. 22:18-19 bother me the mostly since in my early Christian life. Whilst I used to beoieve in security salvation.

    Often, I hear they saying about this, speaks of manuscripts, and Bible translations. Of course, Rev. 22:18-19 is an good example for KJV Onlyism issue. KJV Onlyists saying, if any person takes words out of God's Word(KJV), God will take person's name out of the book of life. Maybe they are right.

    But, I think it is more than that. I believe Rev. 22:18-19 warn to us if any person add any new teachings unto God's Word, or take important doctrines or passages away from the Bible. For an axample- I notice many baptist pastors seem avoid to preaching on Matt. 25:30 in the congregation at the service. It is very rare to hear baptists preaching on Matt. 25:30. I think, they just avoid important verse. They just skipping it, or ignore it.

    Joseph Smith was a perfect example for Rev. 22:18 warns us, if any person ADDS unto God's Word, God will send plaque upon a person. The history tells us, Joseph Smith who founded Mormons, he just make-up of his own ideas added new doctrines, his ideas are not find in the Bible. What happened to his life? He was shot and killed while in the jail in his young age. I believe God already send plaque fell upon Jospeh Smith.

    Same as God would done with any person who ignore, skipped, avoid verse or a passage about the important doctrine, God might take person's name away from the book of life.

    I do not think Rev. 22:18-19 relate to manuscripts or Bible translators. I believe it relates to any person who added new teachings, or take important teaching from the Bible.

    Also, while Moses was in the wilderness, God heard noise out down there. God was about to be wrath upon people because of their sins. God told Moses, whosever sinned against Him, He might take person's name out from the book of life - Exodus 32:31-33.

    It tells us, God COULD take person's name out of the book of life, IF a person still sinning against Him, without have a repent toward God.

    God have his authorize to do with our names in the book of life. He have power to pen or erase our names in the Book of Life. God is the only ONE person(incude Jesus Christ as deity or trinity) have power to write our names down in the book of life. God have power to take person's name out of the book of life, if a person remain in sinning, also receive the mark of the beast too.

    I am aware of Rev. 22:18-19 are a very serious discuss because of salvation issue.

    But, yes, Rev. 22:19 shows us, very clear a person's name COULD be take away from the book of life, IF a person takes words from the Bible, God could have power to take person's name out of it.

    Obivously, Rev. 22:18-19 are speak of unconditional salvation warning.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  3. LandonL

    LandonL
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2003
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just to make a quick, drive-by comment on my way to class:

    Rev. 22:18: 18 I testify to everyone who hears (55) the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone (56) adds to them, God will add to him (57) the plagues which are written in (58) this book; (NASB)

    Remember, first of all, that the Church did -not- have a Canon at the time Revelation was written. All the authoritative texts had not been brought together and compiled at that time. Therefore, it is likely that the phrase 'this book' refers to the text of Revelation itself. In effect, it is a warning that "These are the things which will happen. If you mess around with the prophecies contained herein, you are in for a world of trouble."

    Whether God will take one's salvation for such an offense, I don't pretend to know. I do, however, think that this verse should attract attention from those who espouse a particular view of the end times and act as though it's the gospel truth. It's prophecy, and prophecy is seldom recognized as being fulfilled until it is in the process of being fulfilled or after the fact.

    On a side note, about the KJV only people using this verse for their text: such a statement from them is ludicrous. The phrase was there in the Greek -long- before the KJV was written, and the KJV obviously didn't translate everything correctly. So, by their logic, the KJV translators have 'added' and 'taken away' from the text.

    That was just an aside, and I don't want it to hijack this thread. If you disagree with me, PLEASE PM me or start a new thread.

    --Landon
     
  4. Me2

    Me2
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    the curse is a reminder of the consequences already placed on the non-elect.

    this is nothing new that hasnt already been stated in the NT. (vessels of wrath/mercy)(cursed children of disobedience, antichrist, false prophets)

    the elect receive the blessings. the non-elect receive the curses.
    the elect can see, hear, and understand the revelations received from God, as they have been predetermined to, from the foundation of the world.

    the non-elect will not see, hear, or understand, as their fate has been determined from the foundation of the world.
    they do not contain the spirit of Christ within them. nor do they consider Jesus as Lord over all powers of unrighteousness.

    So If anyone doesnt see, hear or understand what the book is revealing..then they are not of the elect and are presently under this curse.
     
  5. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    A reality most don't want to admit was NOT the idea of removing (or de-emphasizing) text, but the problem would be ADDING.

    I live in Mormon country. Enough said. And KJVO also in a coupla churches. Same thing.
     
  6. PowerndBlood

    PowerndBlood
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2004
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    0
    Great posts and for the record i wasn't trying to KJVO anyone, i really like hearing and looking at things from a different point of view.

    Me2, i agree with you but that is my problem, the people in the verses had part in the Holy City but lost it.

    thanks for your time,
     
  7. Me2

    Me2
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2002
    Messages:
    1,348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
    Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    An interesting Example of Election.

    It is God Who chooses in Absolute Time who will be members of the elect and non Elect.

    wether they are to serve HIS will as vessels of wrath, or vessels of Mercy.

    this is today as well as the next age a display before all Gods creation of experiential wisdom and understanding of both Good and evil using those God has specifically called to fulfill his will.

    both those representing good as well as evil.

    many called (to display evil)
    few chosen (to display good)
     
  8. Salinas

    Salinas
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2004
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sounds simple to me.
    Don't mess with the word!
    Of course there are other applications, but this seems the clearest.

    p.s. Dr. Bob, KJVO and Mormons same thing????

    I don't believe I will be God of my own planet.
    I haven't elevated some "prophet's" writings to the bible.
     
  9. Salinas

    Salinas
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2004
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exactly!
    That is why I believe in millenial exclusion.
     
  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Both "adding" to the Word of God with their own new revelation. We have threads on the Versions forum (not for here) that show Ruckman - modern founder of KJVO - explaining new revelation and correction of the originals by the AV.

    Not saying they are both cults. That would be against the BB rules. [​IMG]
     
  11. Askjo

    Askjo
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,736
    Likes Received:
    0
    DeafPosttrib, read these passages:

    You quoted:
    The KJV? No, they refer to the Words of God that God inspired and preserved.

    You quoted:
    Their theology does nothing with Rev. 22:18-19.

    You quoted:
    Right! JW or Mormon or Catholic bibles.

    You quoted:
    If they add or omit or change God's Words during dealing deceitfully with God's Words, yes. (See 2 Cor. 2:17.)

    You quoted:
    You are incorrect. Yes, they did. One King in the OT mutilated God's Words. God told a Prophet to re-write God's Words. After God inspired His words in the autographs, many heretics mutilated God's Words and added God's Words in the apographs. Translators added, omitted and changed God's Words in modern versions. NIV, NASB, RSV, NEV, UBS (Greek), ASV and modern versions omitted names of our Lord Jesus Christ in the New Testament alone 200 times!
     
  12. AVL1984

    AVL1984
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    6,932
    Likes Received:
    3
    How so, askjo? What king in the OT? What prophet? Can you prove that there were people who mutilated the Bible after the autographs? What are your sources? Translators of the KJV did the same thing. Believe me, the KJV is not a "word for word" translation. :eek: It is impossible to translate one word for another word of the exact same meaning from language to language....so I guess they would be guilty of adding and or subtracting, now, wouldn't they? :(
     
  13. AVL1984

    AVL1984
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    6,932
    Likes Received:
    3
    Oh, also askjo, you forget to tell the truth by not stating that the MV's are accurate to their underlying texts.
     
  14. LandonL

    LandonL
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2003
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    You're kidding me, right? Catholic Bibles? The Catholics use the same New Testament as we do, and their inclusion of the Apocrypha of the Old Testament is based upon the use of the Septuagint by the ENTIRE APOSTOLIC ERA CHURCH.

    To claim that the Catholics violate this passage is preposterous. If that is so, then the Apostles themselves violated this. Common, non-religious (as in: not a rabbi or scribe or some other educated, religious post) Jews in the first century AD had barely a passing knowledge of Hebrew. When the gospel spread to the Gentiles, they adopted the Septuagint because it was written in Greek, the language known throughout the Roman empire. Catholic canon is simply a continuation of this tradition, while Protestants have adopted the Palestinian Jewish canon.
     
  15. North Carolina Tentmaker

    North Carolina Tentmaker
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,355
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have two thoughts on this passage.

    First, I have always looked at Rev 22:18-19 as one of those impossible passages. I believe the same thing about Hebrews 6: 4-6 where the Bible says that if we ever could loose our salvation it would be impossible to regain it. I believe that is an argument that it impossible for us to loose our salvation. Likewise, Ps 119:89 tells us, "For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven." Now if we believe this verse and we believe that God has promised to preserve is word, then I would think that it would be impossible for that word to be changed, added to, or subtracted from. I can't add to God's word, it is settled in heaven.

    Second, the phrase about blotting out names in the book of life. That gave me a lot of grief until I discovered Exodus 32:33. I believe based on that verse and these in Revelation that all people have their name written in the book of life and that they are only blotted out once the opportunity for salvation is passed (death in a lost state). This would seem to fit with II Pet 3:9 as well. I may be in a minority on this, I don't know many other people who agree with me.
     
  16. Artimaeus

    Artimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2002
    Messages:
    3,133
    Likes Received:
    0
    Have you ever "saved a seat" for someone? At some point you might stop saving that seat for them and give it to someone else. After all, they hadn't bought a ticket, they hadn't decided whether they were going to attend or not, but when something happens that determines they aren't going to show, their potential place forfetted. They now cannot attend because their "spot" is gone.

    The Amplified New Testament

    Rev 22:18 I [personally solemnly] warn everyone who listens to the statements of the prophecy [the predictions and the consolations and admonitions pertaining to them] in this book: If anyone shall add anything to them, God will add and lay upon him the plagues (the afflictions and the calamities) that are recorded and described in this book.

    Rev 22:19 And if anyone cancels or takes away from the statements of the book of this prophecy [these predictions relating to Christ’s kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions or warnings pertaining to them], God will cancel and take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the city of holiness (purity and hallowedness), which are described and promised in this book.
     
  17. Askjo

    Askjo
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,736
    Likes Received:
    0
    You're kidding me, right? Catholic Bibles? The Catholics use the same New Testament as we do, and their inclusion of the Apocrypha of the Old Testament is based upon the use of the Septuagint by the ENTIRE APOSTOLIC ERA CHURCH.

    To claim that the Catholics violate this passage is preposterous. If that is so, then the Apostles themselves violated this. Common, non-religious (as in: not a rabbi or scribe or some other educated, religious post) Jews in the first century AD had barely a passing knowledge of Hebrew. When the gospel spread to the Gentiles, they adopted the Septuagint because it was written in Greek, the language known throughout the Roman empire. Catholic canon is simply a continuation of this tradition, while Protestants have adopted the Palestinian Jewish canon.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Does the apocrypha reverence God?
     
  18. Askjo

    Askjo
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,736
    Likes Received:
    0
    I do not think you are KJVP. I see you are on MV side, not the Truth's side. Sorry! :(
     
  19. North Carolina Tentmaker

    North Carolina Tentmaker
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,355
    Likes Received:
    0
    AVL1984:

    I hesitate to answer for Askjo but I believe he is referring to Jehoiakim in the old testament. The story is told in Jeremiah chapter 36. The prophet Jeremiah had received the words directly from God and dictated them to his scribe Baruch who wrote them in a scroll. Baruch then took the scroll and read the words of the Lord in the Temple in Jerusalem. Eventual King Jehoiakim heard about it and had the scroll read to him.

    Jeremiah 36:21-26 says (KJV):
    The good part is what happened after Jehoiakim destroyed the scroll. Verse 32 says:
    This really is an amazing story and supports the belief that God gave us his word and is willing and able to preserve it. Whether you believe God preserved his word in only the KJV or, like me you believe that the other Modern Versions also preserve God's word I think we are all in agreement that God's word is settled forever in heaven and preserved for us on earth.
     
  20. AVL1984

    AVL1984
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    6,932
    Likes Received:
    3
    NCT, I believe you're right about whom askjo is speaking. The fact of the matter is that he seldom gives a straight answer. That was the reason for questioning him. He will post vaguely and then expect us to accept it as fact with no proof.

    As stated many times here before, I use the KJV as a matter of preference, but am not KJVO by any means. I was for years, but there is no scriptural evidence to support such a position. I can and do use MV's on occasion, especially if there is a more understandable rendering in them.
    God's word is indeed forever settled in heaven and preserved for us here on earth in many different translations. I thank Him for that!
     

Share This Page

Loading...