Rev. 3:5

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Bible Student, Jun 3, 2003.

  1. Bible Student

    Bible Student
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    I have never heard anyone cover this passage in preaching or teaching. As I believe the Bible teaches that once someone is saved they can not lose this salvation, how does this verse fit?

    He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    We also know, those whose name is not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.

    Re 20:15
    And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    What is being taught here?

    Thanks
    Richard [​IMG]
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Should have been in my church :D ... I preached on this ...

     
  3. wizofoz

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    Revelation 22:19: "and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

    How does this figure in?
     
  4. RomOne16

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    It's an admonition to a spiritually dead church (the church at Sardis) that still has a remnant of true believers.

    4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    How are any made worthy? How does anyone overcome? By grace through faith.
     
  5. Tim too

    Tim too
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    Richard,

    You can go with the Calvinists and the popular theologians who will take every way in the world to explain away the possibility of someone forfeiting their salvation. Or you can acknowledge that it is in fact a very real possibility that a person can forfeit their salvation.

    Jesus said, "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved." Matthew 10:22 NKJV

    If we endure, We shall also reign with [Him]. If we deny [Him], He also will deny us. 13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. 2 Timothy 2:12-13 NKJV

    For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:26-31 NKJV

    If you look through the pages of the Bible you will find that the "popular" prophets were never the ones that were speaking the word of God. Just something to think about. ;)

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     
  6. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    Hmm. Eternal life given 100% by God or dependent on me? PRAISE GOD I will go with the former!

    Timtoo, if ANYONE can "forfeit" their salvation, it is me. I am a sinner by nature and choice and sin with regularity (and irregularity). How sad and fearful I would be every day if I thought that God somehow lied or tricked me when He gave ME "eternal" life.
     
  7. Bible Student

    Bible Student
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    It is not just Calvinists that believe that God saves once and for all, for all eternity. To say other wise is to call God a lier. And that I will not do.

    Richard [​IMG]
     
  8. Tim too

    Tim too
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    Dr. Bob Griffin,

    I agree with you and disagree with you. You are right in saying that the possibility of forfeiting salvation extends even to you. You are wrong in suggesting that God lied and tricked you. It is clearly in His word. Your theological presuppositions will not allow you to accept it.(Eph 4:15 ;) )

    What we have in this life as pertains to salvation is the indwelling of Jesus’ Holy Spirit. He aids us in our struggles, convicts us of sin, leads us, and teaches us all truth if we will but rely on Him. All of those things that the Holy Spirit does are to bring us into a closer relationship with our God.

    HOWEVER, Eternal Life is a promised reward for those who do not forsake this saving relationship with God.

    To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Romans 2:7 NIV

    The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Galations 6:8-9 NIV

    We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. Hebrews 6:12 NIV

    Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Jude 1:21 NIV

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     
  9. Tim too

    Tim too
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    Richard,

    You are right it is not just Calvinist, it is also very, very popular theology of today. But just because almost everyone believes doesn't make it right. Look back at the in the word and see how many times the word of God came through the "popular" ones. I have given enough scripture in the previous post to cause you to have serious questions about the Calvinistic view of Once Saved Always Saved. Study it for yourself. One word of advice, you can't go to the sources that have taught you Once Saved Always Saved to find the truth. Just ask God to lead you as you study His word.

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     
  10. Tim

    Tim
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    Tim too,

    First of all, let me say I appreciate your deference to me regarding your BB name. (I'll accept any respect I get on this board, even if it is only imagined).

    Secondly, I believe you need to consider the historical setting of the scriptures you are referencing which seem to indicate that one can lose his salvation. The Jews of the first century were in a unique position in God's timetable. They were God's people by birth, but apart from a spiritual new birth, each would lose his place in God's favor and instead face His judgment. These scriptures were written to them to explain their precarious position--a position that true believers of our day are not in. We are secure in Christ.

    Thirdly, I ask the obvious question--How can anyone lose eternal life? If one lost it, it obviously wasn't eternal. The scriptures clearly teach that eternal life a a present possession of believers, rather than something conferred to us upon death. So one either has it forever, or never had it.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  11. Tim too

    Tim too
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    Hi Tim,

    Glad to share the same first name with a brother in Christ. [​IMG] I will try to respond to your points below.

    I will agree that the historical writing of the letter of Hebrews was to Jewish people. They were, as the text indicates Jewish believers. The author of Hebrews goes to great pains to show the superiority of Christ's sacrifice to the old sacrificial system. There are several verses in Hebrews that indicate that these were believers.

    For instance:

    Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. Hebrews 3:1 NIV

    See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. Hebrews 3:12 NIV

    I believe that the issue is not that they are being exhorted to accept Christ as their savior, but that they are being exhorted not to fall away.

    It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV

    If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:26-31 NIV

    Eternal life is a promise for those who endure until the end. It is something that you are rewarded with at the end of this age whether that is for you at death or at Christ’s coming.

    "I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields--and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. Mark 10:29-30 NIV

    All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Matthew 10:22 NIV

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     
  12. Matthew 16:24

    Matthew 16:24
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    I believe a person can lose their salvation. OSAS, sounds like a very nice teaching and I would love to believe it but I just can't.
    A man can walk away from God.
    However the one thing I do not understand which would be an argument for the OSAS teaching is,
    God can foretell the future so why would he give the believer the Holy Spirit to only have him be rejected later and given back to him, so to speak.
    Free will?
     
  13. hsmom3

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    This is a topic that has troubled me, because the Scriptures seems to give security in one instance and then the possibility of losing it in another. I was wondering if the word "saved" meant different things in different passages?

    Thank you! [​IMG]

    hsmom3
     
  14. Tim too

    Tim too
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    hsmom3,

    I think that the problem comes when we confuse the pledge as a present reality. When we accept Christ, we receive the Holy Spirit as a pledge of the inheritance, which is coming either at the appearance of Christ or at our departure from this world by death.

    In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14 NASB

    In asking and talking about Eternal Life the Bible constantly uses the term inherit. Inherit is something that will happen in the future. We do not enjoy the blessings now that we will in heaven. Check and see how many references are linked with inherit or inheritance.

    The Bible as you truly stated presents both views of being saved. The Biblical presentation of Salvation could be best described as I was saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. It is a continuing relationship with Christ. If we endure until the end we will be saved. [​IMG]

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     
  15. KenH

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    Most Baptists are not Calvinists. Yet most Baptists believe in the preservation of the saints by God. So this is really not an issue between most Calvinists and non-Calvinists in the classic sense.
     
  16. Tim

    Tim
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    Tim too,

    Just a few verses that indicate present possession of everlasting life for believers:

    John 3:36
    He that believeth on the Son hath
    everlasting life: and he that
    believeth not the Son shall not see
    life; but the wrath of God abideth
    on him.

    Joh 5:24
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He
    that heareth my word, and
    believeth on him that sent me,
    hath everlasting life, and shall
    not come into condemnation; but
    is passed from death unto life.

    Joh 6:47
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He
    that believeth on me hath
    everlasting life.

    Above, Jesus does not indicate that eternal life would be conferred later.

    Secondly, I think the writer of Hebrews was either assuming a mixed group of believers and unbelievers would read his letter, or he was warning of physical destruction for those who would align themselves with Judaism instead of Christianity (the siege of Jerusalem was at hand.)

    Somehow we have to reconcile seemingly contradictory statements in Scripture. I think the historical perspective helps in this case.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  17. KenH

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    To be consistent, if one believes that man can truly be saved by his free will, then he must also believe that man can become unsaved by his free will. And to be consistent, if one believes that man is truly saved by God's free grace, then he must also believe that man will be kept saved by God's free grace, unless one believes that God can take His grace back after having freely given it to an individual.

    Regarding God's foreknowledge, some theologians are now advocationg open theism which teaches that God no more knows what will happen in the future than we do. They teach that unless this is the case, then man does not truly have free will. They regard God as simply being a master chessplayer who simply knows better how to move the pieces on the board than His opposition. I find open theism to run against the grain of the Holy Scriptures.
     
  18. Tim too

    Tim too
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    Tim,

    I left your verses and included the same verses from a couple literal translations.

    John 3:36
    He that believeth on the Son hath
    everlasting life: and he that
    believeth not the Son shall not see
    life; but the wrath of God abideth
    on him.

    "The one believing [or, trusting] in the Son has eternal life, but the one refusing to believe the Son will not see {the} life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36 ALT

    "he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him." John 3:36 YLT


    Joh 5:24
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He
    that heareth my word, and
    believeth on him that sent me,
    hath everlasting life, and shall
    not come into condemnation; but
    is passed from death unto life.

    "Most positively, I say to you, the one hearing My word and believing [or, trusting] the One having sent Me has eternal life and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life!" John 5:24 ALT

    "Verily, verily, I say to you--He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life." John 5:24 YLT

    Joh 6:47
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He
    that believeth on me hath
    everlasting life.

    "Most positively, I say to you, the one believing in Me has eternal life. Joh 6:47 ALT

    "Verily, verily, I say to you, He who is believing in me, hath life age-during" John 6:47 YLT

    In the literal translations above you will see that the verb is not past but an ongoing continuing action...believing. We must continue believing or endure until the end to be saved. Salvation is God's deal. He has called us to this covenant relationship. We get no credit for it nor do we have a boast in it. Yet if we forsake this saving relationship God will surely forsake us.

    I have never heard that any of the epistles were written to anyone but the church made up of believers.

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     
  19. Tim too

    Tim too
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    Most Baptists are not Calvinists. Yet most Baptists believe in the preservation of the saints by God. So this is really not an issue between most Calvinists and non-Calvinists in the classic sense. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that it is not a Calvinistic issue necessarily. I say what I said about Calvinists because Calvin was the main champion of perseverance of the saints which becomes in our day once saved always saved. Not slamming Calvinism, but most Baptist will run from Calvin's teaching of limited atonement yet readily accept Calvin's teaching on the perseverance of the saints. Why? Because it’s popular.

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim
     
  20. Tim

    Tim
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    Tim too,

    Sounds like you're making being a believer a day-to-day issue. So how would any writer of the epistles know if he was writing to believers or non-believers?

    I think the point of the literal translations' verb forms you mentioned is to demonstrate the perseverance of belief that is present in true believers.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     

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