Revelation 12: Who is this Woman?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by vooks, May 20, 2015.

  1. vooks

    vooks
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    Revelation 12:6 (KJV)
    And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days


    Revelation 12:14-16
    (KJV) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent


    When I first read this, I figured it was Mary the mother of Jesus. Before that I had read some Watchtower paraphernalia about apocalypse so I 'knew' Revelation had symbol. But then Just as fast I quickly dismissed it. John is writing many years after the birth of Christ and at least from his vantage point, the birth is past....history yet he had been told to;
    Revelation 1:19 (KJV)
    Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter


    Clearly John was no Josephus.

    Now in 2015, we have some 'problems';
    1. We may misread/misunderstand some or all Revelation symbols or read symbolism into some/all literal events and miss the boat by rivers,
    2. Read PAST prophesied events as yet to come or current, or read FUTURE prophesied events as past. In either of this, we again miss the boat by rivers.

    Brethren, I need your opinion on this Woman. It is obvious we may not agree on her ID and thus we may not all be right at the same time,but we can always discard some interpretations as wild and unwarranted on the basis of the text itself.
     
  2. kyredneck

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    15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3

    26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4

    7 ...It behoveth you to be born from above;
    8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3
     
  3. vooks

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    Thank you sir for the verses.
    Could you please from your references explain who is the woman, and what 1,260 days in the wilderness are all about?
     
  4. kyredneck

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    "...every one who hath been born of the Spirit."


    3.452054794520548 years?
     
  5. vooks

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    Thank you, that should mean believers.
    The woman is was pregnant, about to go into delivery. She delivers a man-child and the child is caught up to heaven leaving the woman here. What then is the man-child?
    Great, that's 1,260/365. So what happens for 1,260 days, and is it past,,present or future?
     
  6. PreachTony

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    Much depends on your interpretation. If you view Revelation as an apocalyptic prophecy of future events, then there are probably many things that could be applied to the woman.

    If you view it as a recounting of world history through a spiritual, prophetic lens, then you can potentially narrow down the meaning. The "woman" in Revelation 12 could be Old Testament Israel, as shown by her protection coming from God. She could represent the New Testament Church. You have to use context clues to determine meaning, and even then your chosen interpretation will effect how you read the passage.

    If viewed as OT Israel or as the NT church, the woman's time in protection is listed as a "time, times, and half a time." We commonly view this as 3.5 years, or 1260 days. (Yeah, the math is not exact, but we're talking spiritual prophecy, but complex fractal equations.)

    Personally, I've always viewed the passage as a reference to Jesus's earthly ministry. The woman is noted to have a child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Genesis 49 relates a prophecy from Jacob that "the sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come." If we accept a 3.5 year ministry for Jesus, then we see a correlation.

    I know that's not perfectly explained, but that's my view. Then again, I take an amillennial, partial-preterist view of Revelation...
     
  7. kyredneck

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    She is manifested in this realm of time in His saints, the children of promise, OT AND NT.

    5 And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne. Rev 12

    15 And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. Rev 19

    The time of Jacob's trouble.

    Past.
     
  8. vooks

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    The man child is Jesus you reckon?Was Jesus begotten by saints?
    And next, who are the remnant of her seed that the devil went to fight after failing to get the woman?

    What is that, when did it start and when did it end?
     
  9. vooks

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    Thank you PreachTony
    Your idea is a bit fresh, haven't heard about it.
    What do you think is the wilderness here, an experience that lasts the 3.5 years of Jesus ministry?
    And who is the woman in this case?
     
  10. kyredneck

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    Yes.

    No. He was firstborn among many brethren.

    17 And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus: Rev 12

    4 And these are the words that Jehovah spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
    5 For thus saith Jehovah: We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
    6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child: wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
    7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob`s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. Jer 30

    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
    2 who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw.
    3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1

    10 And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand. Rev 22

    It began in earnest probably about AD 66.

    23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

    Probably about AD 70.
     
  11. vooks

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    I don't understand how the church gave birth to Jesus and the saints, and after the dragon is frustrated by the woman(saints) in the wilderness, it goes to make war with saints

    And what would you consider to be the man child 'caught up in heaven'? Is that ascension?

    Ok, so this should point to the siege of Jerusalem

    30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Did they see the son of man in 70AD?
     
    #11 vooks, May 20, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 20, 2015
  12. savedbymercy

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    The Women is the Church ! The Mother of Us all Gal 4:26

    26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
     
  13. vooks

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    Thank you,
    Allow me to ask some more.
    -Who is the man-child, what does it mean that he was caught up in heaven?
    -What is this 1260 days in the wilderness? Are they literal/symbolic, past/present/future?
     
  14. savedbymercy

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    vooks

    Was Mary a Saint ? Gal 4:4

    But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    That word made ginomai:


    I come into being, am born, become, come about, happen.

    Did He come out of A Saint of God ?
     
  15. vooks

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    My brother,
    You missed the context. He said the woman was the saints both OT and NT saints. So I wondered if that was the case whether saints symbolized by the woman begat Jesus.

    I do not for a second doubt Jesus was born of Mary, a woman, but Jesus being born of a woman is different from Jesus being born of saints symbolized by a woman.

    Back to the text. It vividly captures a woman travailing in labor till she brings forth a child, a man-child who is caught up in heaven. If this woman is Mary, then Mary equally begot the saints who were persecuted by the dragon. Do you believe Mary begat Christians?
     
  16. savedbymercy

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    His Birth in this World was through the Church, A Remnant, a Seed !

    The Women and Her Seed are One ! Rev 12:17

    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Mary was just a Type !
     
  17. kyredneck

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    Vooks, I'm not sure how to approach your questions. Let me first state the framework I adhere to on this. The two women in Revelation, chapter 12 & 17, are the very same women of Galatians 4:

    22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the freewoman.
    23 Howbeit the son by the handmaid is born after the flesh; but the son by the freewoman is born through promise.
    24 Which things contain an allegory: for these women are two covenants; one from mount Sinai, bearing children unto bondage, which is Hagar.
    25 Now this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is: for she is in bondage with her children.
    26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now.
    30 Howbeit what saith the scripture? Cast out the handmaid and her son: for the son of the handmaid shall not inherit with the son of the freewoman. Gal 4

    Take note of:

    Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now.

    We can derive from this this that ALL His saints of all time of every nation are children of the celestial woman of Rev 12. Children of the everlasting covenant. Ps 87 speaks of it:

    3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah
    4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there.
    5 Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her.
    6 Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Selah

    God always has had a people "out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues", even under the Mosaic Covenant. Yea, there were MORE of His children among the nations than in her that had the husband:

    1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. Isa 54

    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal 4

    Stop thinking of Satan chasing after the woman as a one time event. He has been persecuting the woman since Cain, who was of the evil one, killed Abel. He persecuted the children of Israel in Egypt and pursued them to the Red Sea; he tried to eliminate the Jews in Persia through the evil works of Haman; he was wroth and slaughtered the toddlers at Bethlehem after Joseph and Mary fled to Egypt; he by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay Jesus of Nazareth; etc., etc. I totally agree with Pink:

    "..."And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (Gen. 3:15).....Here we have the beginning and germ of all prophecy." A.W. Pink
    http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Gleanings_Genesis/genesis_05.htm

    It's the seed germ of all prophecy, the enmity between the children of the flesh and the children of promise has gone on ever since God's declaration of Gen 3:15.
     
    #17 kyredneck, May 20, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 20, 2015
  18. vooks

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    No my brother, they are not one.
    We have the woman, her man-child who is caught up to heaven and then the remnant of her seed. At most their similarity is all are humans.; mother,child, other kids.

    A type of what?
     
  19. vooks

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    kyredneck,
    This is certainly powerful. Thank you for responding. It appears to me as if Galatians 4 is stressing the superiority of Christianity over Judaism a theme that runs through the epistle. Paul appears to be distinguishing between two covenants.

    Look at these verses closely
    1. We have two covenants
    2. One is the Sinaitic/Mosaic and it brings its children to bondage. It can be called Hagar and it is highlighted by Jerusalem city.
    3. The other is highlighted by Jerusalem from above. We are its children

    Of course under both covenants we had saints hence Hebrews 11, but clearly if you grab OT saints under Sinaitic covenant and mix them with NT saints under the blood of Jesus,and conclude all as children of 'Jerusalem from above, our mother',you'd be mixing the allegory.

    So for this I believe this verse sheds little light on Revelation 12 unless you dispense with its context completely.
     
    #19 vooks, May 20, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 20, 2015
  20. kyredneck

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    Ah, that's OK, maybe someday you'll make the connection with:

    'the Jerusalem that is above...our mother',

    and:

    'in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars...with child... her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus'.
     

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