Revelation 12

OK all:

Here's my view on who the woman is.

The woman= Israel
manchild= 144,000 These are the 12,000 from each tribe mentioned earlier who would be preachers for the Kingdom during the Tribulation. Halfway thru it, they will also be raptured (and y'all thought there was only one rapture--- that there's more than one is how so many seemingly contradictory opinions ALL have some validity). I always took it that from chapter 4 onward were things yet to come. Now some take a historical view of Revelation from John's time onward. I have no real problem with that since prophecy (much like history) repeats itself. However, the culmination of Revelation in its most intense form will take place in that last seven years, a.k.a "the time of Jacob's trouble". No matter what interpretation one goes by (historic or futurist), either way BOTH occur after chapter four AFTER Christ ascended to heaven. Based on the description of the manchild, I think this really downplays the power of Christ--- other passages of the New Testament glorify Him more than this passage. Therefore, to put such a "watered down" passage describing Christ as the supposed manchild would be needless redundancy. No, the description sounds more like those who were marked with the seal of God--- and the dragon (Satan) hated them for what they do until God catches them away.

 

Hey Ray:

I just noticed, you only live about seven miles from me (Williams Township). Glad to see one so nearby (other than my kid) participating in these forums.

 

Who is the woman of Revelation 12?
Is she Israel, the Church, or Mary?
She is definitely not the church, for the church started on the Day of Pentecost, and this woman gave birth to the man-child, which is Christ. Christ came before the church. The church did not give birth to Christ. The woman is not the church.
Is the woman Mary. We don’t find any evidence anywhere of Mary undergoing intense persecution as described here.
Verse 17 makes no sense in light of the interpretation of the woman being Mary:
“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,”

The only seed of Mary is Christ. Christ had no physical descendants. What is the remnant of Mary’s seed? Is it those that are mentioned in Mat.13:55,56, the actual half brothers of Jesus? No, this does not make sense.
The remnant that is spoken of here is the remnant of Israel, Israel being the woman, and Israel is the one that will be saved from Satan the dragon by the coming of Christ. It was from the nation of Israel that Christ came from. Salvation is of the Jews, Jesus said. The only logical conclusion is that the woman of Revelation 12 is the nation of Israel.

Now chapter 17 is a different story. It presents a different woman, clothed in a different way, playing a completely different role.
Read the description given in the first few verses of Revelation 17:

17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

This woman is a harlot. She sits upon many waters, that is, has authority over many people.
The kings of the earth have committed fornication with her. She is a religious figurehead, and she has used her religious power for political gain, joining hands with the leaders of many nations.
“The inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.” Even the common person has been duped by her false teaching, mixing the world and spiritual things together.
The woman sat upon a scarlet colored beast full of names of blasphemy. The woman, then, is the false prophet, the leader of the end-time world wide church, who will sit on the beast—the anti-christ. He is the one whom the false prophet will work hand in hand with.
Look how beautifully arrayed this woman, the false prophet, will be. See the gold up in her hand, resembling very much like a chalice.
Her name is in her forehead written very clearly for all to see: Mystery, Babylon the Great, The Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth. Again this describes a religious figurehead, a religious leader.
And the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.
This religious leader is particularly responsible for the blood of New Testament saints, for the persecution of Christians throughout the ages.
There is more information given later on. But going on just this much information, can this person be identified in just a general way?
First: Is this leader a Jew, a “Christian,” or some kind of non-believer of another religion entirely?
I have the word Christian in quotes because I believe at this time in chronological history all true Christians will be in Heaven. But there will still be many on earth who will call themselves Christians and are not. For example, any one of many cults.

I do not believe that this leader is Jewish for the Jews have not been instrumental in persecuting the Christians all over the world throughout the ages. There was a slight persecution under Saul before he became Paul, but it is very doubtful that John is referring to that small episode in the world-wide scheme of things.

I do not believe that this leader is from another religion like the Sikhs or Hindus, though there are some that believe he could be a Muslim.

The most popular view throughout the Reformation and onward, is that this leader will be the Pope, who will work hand in hand with the antichrist. It has been the Catholic Church throughout the ages that has persecuted true believers by the thousands. Their blood will be upon her hands. The leader of the Catholic Church, the Pope, fits this description very well.

And yet there is still one more possibility. If it is the Pope, the pope will be somewhat Charismatic. Or, this leader will be a Charismatic leader. And by the word Charismatic, I am not referring to one’s personality, but to his “theology” and experience in speaking in tongues and some of the other so-called present day “gifts of the spirit.” According to Revelation 13 he will be able to perform miracles, and have much power. According to Mat.21, he will be able to do signs and wonders, just as the Charismatics claim to do signs and wonders today. But Jesus will say to them, “Depart from me ye that work iniquity, for I never knew you.”
Is there a Charismatic pope in the making??
DHK

 

True - this is not "The Pure Church" of God.

In Christ,

Bob

 

DHK:

Re: your following comments:
The most popular view throughout the Reformation and onward, is that
this leader will be the Pope, who will work hand in hand with the antichrist.

.....and....
According to Revelation 13 he will be able to perform miracles, and have much power.

Scripture says it is the antichrist who will have the power to perform miracles,
sustain personal injury and yet live and seemingly have the power over death.

You say the Pope will work "hand in hand with the antichrist" yet you attribute
the performing of miracles, power etc. as if the Pope IS the antichrist..

Is that your contention ?

I agree that a powerful worldwide church will be the source of deception.
The Muslim nation has been the curse since Ishmael and are presently
making war against Christians worldwide as part of their belief system.

What scripture causes Catholics to stand out over Muslims as the workers
of endtime deception..?

(At least there are Christians within the Catholic community but not in the
Muslim).

 

(At least there are Christians within the Catholic community but not in the
Muslim).


How do you know that?????? There are christians in every community.

 

How do you know that?????? There are christians in every community.

Of course I don't know that, but with the emphasis and hatred for Christians
within the Muslim community, and with their own writings and teachings proposing
that they kill Jews and Christians, it is pretty easy to suggest that their lives are
definitely at risk for even mentioning the word. Look at what is happening in Indonesia
at this present time. The Muslims have vowed to either kill or run every Christian off
that island....and they're doing it. Who's next? They're hardly a peaceful group.
Muslims who tolerate Christians are not good Muslims.

However there are people who have come out of Islam to become christians and that's
why we keep "Going and Telling" .

Wouldn't it be impossible to be a practicing, vocal Christian within Islam ?
You're either dead or you're gone.

 

In Revelation 13 there are two beasts. The first beast comes out of the sea. He is the one who has the deadly wound and recovers. He is described in the first ten verses of the chapter as a military dictator with great power and authority that is given to him by Satan himself. He speaks great blasphemies, and demands worship from all.

The second beast, described in verses 11-15, arises out of the earth. This is the false prophet who causes all to worship the first beast (the anti-christ). It is the false prophet has all the power of the anti-christ (first beast), but will cause all to worship the first beast. He does great wonders, even causing fire to fall out of Heaven. He is the one that has the power to do miracles, and by those miracles deceives all that dwell on the earth. He makes an image of the first beast and causes all to worship the image of the beast. This is the false prophet, the leader of the end time one world religion of the Tribulation Period. This is the one whom many believe will be the pope. He will be Charismatic because of all the miracles that he does (but not necessarily Charismatic). That is just the opinion of some. There are some that believe all his miracles are demonic in nature and entirely supernatural. There are others who believe that with the technology that we have today that he could be some sort of technological wizard, making things happen that will seem like miracles. Since the first beast (the anti-christ) is actually possessed by Satan, and the false prophet has all the power that the first beast has, I would think that the former view is more likely. For Satan himself is able to perform miracles. There will come a time when the antichrist will no longer need the false prophet or his religion, and he will be crushed and done away with.

Rev.17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

It will not be long after that the antichrist will gather the nations together to fight against Jerusalem, and Christ will come and put down all her enemies.
DHK

 

#1. The Word anti-christ is only used by John and does not mention "miracles".

#2. The "man of sin" the "son of perdition" mentioned in 2Thess 2 does work miracles. AND indeed - that may very well be Satan himself in the ultitmate example at the end of time.

#3. The first beast of Rev 13 comes up out of the sea. The second beast comes up out of the land.

In Rev 17 the symbol of "water" or sea - is explained literally as "many nations, tribes and peoples". Just as a "flood" is war among the nations or by a nation.

In Rev 12 the Dragon is also symbolized as the power that sought to kill the Messiah at His birth as well as the power that persecuted the saints after the resurrection of Christ. Rome in its various forms.

In Christ,

Bob

[ June 13, 2003, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Thanks Bob and DHK.
Some things just remain mysterious.